We use podcast neighborhoods to identify closely related shows or shows that are reaching the kinds of audiences that we already wanna reach. That's the competition. And then we listen, welcome to pod lands. The last word in podcasting news. It's Thursday, the 11th of August, 2022, at least where I am. I'm James. Cridlin the editor of pod news and I'm Evo, Tara podcasting's professional contrarian and the host of podcast. Pontifications oh, and I'm also in the podcast hall of fame. James does not yet. Not yet. And I'm Dan Meisner from bumper and later. I'll talk about podcast neighborhoods and our new podcast growth agency. He will pod land is sponsored by buzz Sprout's podcast. Hosting made easy last week, 3,310 people started a podcast with buzz sprout. And now there's buzz sprout ads to grow your podcast wherever it's hosted. And we're sponsored by squad the remote recording tool that creators love squad cast has just launched V five with new features and a brand new look, 4,000 hours of high quality audio is remotely recorded every week using squad. Yes. So pod land is where Sam, Seth and I review this week's top podcasting stories covered on pod news. Time is currently in Italy, Suning himself and sampling fruit based drinks. So in Sam's place this week, a fellow beer lover, uh, Evo, Terra, Evo, for those who don't know who you are, who are you? That is a question I have been trying to answer for the majority of my life, and I still don't have a solid answer. Um, long time podcaster first. Co-host of the pod land actually. Is that true? Did I host for you when, when you were out on time? I don't recall, but I know I've been on the program before. long time podcaster as mentioned previously and, uh, pontificator of all things podcasting and just someone who's been in the game for a very long time and likes to keep up to speed on what is happening in the world of podcasting. And I rely. Pod news to help me get there. Oh, well, thank you. Uh, yes. I notice, uh, that, uh, in, uh, pod News's, uh, history of the word podcasting, you were one of the very first, uh, in there and you wrote a book about it as well. I believe did. Yeah. Back in 2005, I was one of the co-authors of podcasting for dummies. And, uh, that was an interesting thing to write. Yeah. I also wrote expert podcasting practices for dummies, which is arguably the worst book title ever. um, yeah, if you go back and you read podcast taking for dummies, now, how much of that is, is even vaguely after. Oh my goodness. It is, it is hilarious. Cause occasionally I will grab that book from 2005. Now, now the good news is they're up to, I think the fourth edition of it. I, I ducked out halfway through this second edition because I. I was done telling people how to start podcasting. I wanted to move into something a little more advanced, like, okay, now, now what do we do after that? So I, I ducked out my, my co-author T is still writing it and a good friend of mine. Chuck is the, also the author. And yeah, the new edition is significantly up to date. But the challenge with print is as soon as you put it in print, it's out of date. Todd Cochran wrote an excellent book as well at much the same sort of, uh, time. Uh, and, uh, it is still available on the internet if you know where to go. And there's wonderful photographs of Todd, uh, walking down a street, listening to a podcast, walking around, not quite sure why you'd have that in there. Uh, it's not the only book that you've written as well. You also wrote a book which I've been actually trying to buy Evo. Um, but it's very difficult to buy, uh, here in Australia. Um, it's about, uh, it's some kind of faddish diet, isn't it? yes, it is. Uh, I wrote a book called, uh, the beer diet, a brew story mm-hmm and it documented my journey to find out what would happen if the only. Food and drink of caloric content I consumed for an entire month was based on. Sausage and craft beer, what would actually happen? And so I kept a running diary, uh, of all the things that I ate and all the things that I drank throughout the week. I'll be honest. Sometimes it was more of a recollection the next morning of what was that again than I did. Um, but I tried to keep a good, detailed diary of that. I went to go see the doctor, uh, every single week. In fact, the doctor I saw was my co-author of the book and would write some interesting bits inside it. But what we think we know about diets, what we really know about diets and yeah, I tried that grand experiment and here's the, uh, the spoiler, uh, I lost 15 pounds. Wow. In those 31 days. And my liver enzymes never blip above baseline. My triglycerol cut in half and my really bad cholesterol down by a third. So I'd call that a success. Although am I still doing the diet? No, no, you've given it's an entire month of being moderately hungry and moderately drunk, uh, the entire time. So, uh, yeah. There's always that. Yeah. And you've given up, all you've done now is you've just given up the, the sausage, I guess. Yeah. Right. And I'm not quite as limited to the number either. So there's that? No, there is always that. Um, and you do podcast pontifications, which is a excellent podcast, which comes out every sort of few days during the week. What is it? Just once week now, daily. Yeah, once I'm doing it weekly, now I was doing it daily for around 550 episodes. And at some point time I realized that's hard. James. Do you know how hard it is James to put out a daily podcast? I, I, I do know how hard it is as a matter of fact, you do. Yes. Yes you do. Yeah. Particularly because you could, you could, uh, take that and you could batch record those. Yeah. If you wanted to, whereas, uh, hard to do with the news that doesn't appear to be an issue yeah, definitely. Still. There we go. Yes. And you are also, um, uh, chief, uh, uh, uh, chief. What shall I call you? Chief CEO? Sure. I don't know. Simpler media, uh, as well. So you help other people with their, with their podcast stuff. Do you? Yeah. Businesses that want a podcast? Um, I, I, I used to run a digital advertising agency and so I realized fine. If businesses wanna pay someone to help make their podcast, they might as well pay me. So kind of make sense. Well, pod land, suppose both chapters and transcripts. If your app doesn't, you should grab a new podcast app pod news.net/new podcast apps and our websites@podlanddotnewsforthearchiveandanypodcastnewsatpodnews.net. So let's get going with the very first story of this week. Podcast. Guests are now paying up to$50,000 to appear on popular shows. And those podcasts, oftentimes don't disclose it according to a piece from Ashley Carmen, friend of the show, Redding and Bloomberg, she quotes a number of podcasts that charge more than $30,000 per interview. And they have only added a full disclosure, which is an FTC. That's a federal trade commission here in the states requirement after they were contacted by Bloomberg for the story. So, James, would you charge guests to be on one of your shows? Wow, well, uh, no, I don't think so. Um, but nevertheless, I, I think, you know, I, I guess you could look at it the other way, if I could get onto the Joe Rogan experience or something, which was a bit more obvious for my, um, audience and, um, right. And, you know, and I could get on there for $500. Would I get on there? Absolutely. I would. Would I spend the $500? Oh yes, totally would so I guess, uh, I guess, you know, I'm kind of looking at this and going, you know yes. Um, it's a bit of. Sort of peeling back the, you know, the mystery behind how, uh, media works, but, um, yeah, there's a fair amount of this that goes on and, and it goes on in TV as well. And it goes on, on those weird, um, audio programs that you can listen to. If you plug your headphones into the armrests on planes, um, there are still audio programs on there and they charge a phenomenal amount to be on. I, I was, I was, um, you know, I was sold one of those, uh, a few, a few years ago and I said, no, no, no, I don't. I do not want to be on there, but they were wanting to charge $5,000 just to be on just to be ignored on the , you know, some sort of, uh, system. Do you think. do, I mean, would, would you charge guests or do you think that, you know, this whole thing is a dreadful thing? Well, I don't, I don't think it's dreadful at all. I think the dreadful part is not disclosing it. I think, I think that is the story for me, but when I read the article, I was like, well, yeah, that happens. Of course it happens. As you mentioned, it happens in all forms of media. Um, the, the challenge, not the challenge, but the right thing to do is simply disclose that upfront, for example, on podcast pontifications I do sometimes once a month, sometimes less frequently than that, something I call it branded benefit sponsor, and they have to pay to get someone on the show. And I ask 'em three simple questions, but it's, it's all disclosed. Several times before, during afterwards, I don't want anyone thinking anything other, other than that. So I, I have no problem with it. If you've got the right audience or as you mentioned, a very sizeable audience that also might be the right audience. It's it's I don't see it as a challenge again, as long as it's properly disclosed. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know, how about the other way a, a guest wanting to be paid to be on your show? Yeah, no, that's that happens. Quite a bit, you know, there, there are people that are now asking for their appearance fees to do that, which isn't anything unusual. You mean people, you pay speakers to go to conferences and speak, to draw an audience. So I think we'll, we'll start seeing more of that happen in the podcasting space. It's happened in the radio space for years as you know. Um, so I'm I'm yeah, I think it's okay. But I guess I feel a little bit different about that one. Does you need to disclose that? Should the show disclose that they paid the guests to show up? Hmm, that part, I don't know. I need to think about that more. Yeah, because I mean, a show doesn't. Disclose, you know, that, uh, we, we paid our producer for this show , you know, et cetera, et cetera. Right. So, so I guess, I guess it's a little bit different. I mean, from my point of view, I'm, I'm kind of a subject matter, uh, authority subject matter authority, uh, on, uh, a very specific bit of radio. Um, and, uh, you know, when I've been interviewed a few times by the BBC or by, um, I think CBC was one and, and various things, they, they do give a small amount of money to cover. Time that that I spent. Yeah. Um, and I think that that's probably fair enough. Yeah. Um, and it's pro it's probably up to the, up to the guest if they wanna do that. And, and if, and if you, as a podcast host, want to turn around and say, well, I'm not, I'm not putting you on, then, then that's absolutely fine too. yeah, right. Again, I think it's just, let's be above board. Let's not do things sneaky and, and it'll all work out in the wash. Yes. Which is usually a good plan. Well, let's move on to story. Number two friend of mine and friend of yours, friend of the show, Dan Meisner and yo. Whoo have launched bumper, a new podcast growth agency bumper will work with organizations on audience development, strategies, marketing, and promotion. Now I already teased that we know them, but how do we know these people, James? Well, they are, well, I mean, I I've, I've known both of them for many, many years, but they are most recently from Pacific content. They're now stepping out on their own. Uh, Dan is it's he's so, so clever. I've known him for a long time. He's one of these people that sits and writes Python scripts and, and, uh, works out how to hack into the apple podcast system and everything else. He's pioneered a thing called podcast neighborhoods. So I spoke to Dan Meiser and I asked him what podcast neighborhoods were a podcast neighborhood is a way of making a map. Of podcasts and listeners and the relationships between those things. And when I say, when I say map, I really do mean a map. It is a visual representation of shows, audiences, intersecting, and overlapping audiences. And it's a way of analyzing those things to make decisions about a show that you're thinking about making or a show that you already have. Some people say that the podcast neighborhoods look a little bit like spider webs, or they look a little bit like exploding galaxies. They are beautiful, but more than beautiful. They're they're practically useful in the day to day work of a podcast marketer. So tell us how practically useful they are. I mean, you did, uh, some really interesting research on the Canadian, um, podcast industry, um, Canada of course, very much, um, overshadowed by its larger and bra, uh, neighbor to the south mm-hmm Um, and you discovered, uh, a lot of interesting things about Canadian podcast content. Yeah. I got this question from a colleague. She asked me, where do I find a list of the most popular domestically produced podcasts? And I scratched my head and thought. I don't know. I don't know where you would come up with such a list because it's very simple to put together a list of popular shows, at least by some measures, but it's not so easy to put together a list of domestically produced shows. And the reason for that, as far as I can tell is there's no universally or even commonly accepted way of adding. Geographic information about the country of origin or the place of origin of a podcast. I know there are efforts in the works to add geo data to certain podcasts, but not specifically what country did this show come from? And so my colleague asked where do I find this list of shows that are both popular in Canada and also made in Canada? And I had to think about it for a while. And what I ended up doing is using this podcast neighborhood's methodology to put together a list of all the popular shows in Canada. That's easy enough to do. I just went to some of the popular, uh, podcast apps that have charts, charts, and got a list of across all of the different categories. Some reasonable number of shows about 5,000 different shows and said, okay, here's the 5,000 most popular shows in Canada. Then the trick was figuring out, well, which of them. Were actually made here. And what I identified was a, a, a heuristic that allowed me to, with some reasonable degree of accuracy, predict what country the show was made in. And then I overlaid that geographic data on top of the podcast neighborhoods. And it, you mentioned, you know, Canada and you know, like many other countries outside of the United States being inundated with American programming and American programming. In many cases, dominating what's popular inside these podcast apps. This gave me a glimpse into just how popular Canadian shows are to Canadian audiences. And from what I can tell, it's about 10% of what's at the top of the charts actually made in Canada. So 10% of the Canadian charts contain homegrown hits. Interesting. And I wonder how that compares to other countries. I know that I've done research in the past with pocket casts, um, who very kindly gave me a list of the most subscribed shows in Australia and the UK. And certainly the UK had an awful lot of homegrown stuff, Australia, less. So as you would kind of expect, I think because of the BBC, what was the overwhelming finding? Did you find that, um, you know, Canadian, uh, content is strongest in terms of news, which I would guess it might be, or, or what did you find out? What I found was that there are three and a half or four content verticals or broad topic areas with demonstrated track records of reaching Canadian audiences with domestically produced. Content the first one you're absolutely right. News and current affairs and specifically domestically produced news and current affairs largely about Canada, right? Mm. So news and current affairs, not hugely surprising there. The second category that seemed to do very, very well. Sports. And again, sports, uh, that are particular to cities or teams based in Canada. Not, not hugely surprising there. Yeah. Things, things to do with ice. I would say indeed, indeed. The third category that did really, really well was, uh, and a speaking in generalities here, French language programming, and I say domestically produced French language programming. Mm. Right. So that's, uh, shows made in Canada for French speaking, Canada mm-hmm and then the third and a half or fourth category that I found was what I would call personal finance or investment shows. Right. Shows about what it is to manage your money right. In Canada, which requires perhaps a different approach than maybe other parts of the world. Mm. And so those, aren't the only areas where there are homegrown hits, but. If you were looking to place your bets on certain content categories and you wanted some reasonable degree of success, that's where I'd be placing my bets. Now there's a, uh, very, uh, popular TV soap, which is just finished, uh, here in Australia called neighbors. Um, and, uh, from the lyrics, neighbors should be there for one another. That's when good neighbors become good friends. I guess that podcast neighborhoods can also be used for growing podcasts too. Yeah. I've used them in a number of different ways when working on a brand new project before we produce a single interview or decide on who the host should be or make any of those editorial decisions. I often recommend listening to other people's shows so that you can avoid duplication and so that you can create something that is meaningfully. Differentiated in the marketplace. And so I often use podcast neighborhoods first to say, let's identify, uh, who's in the competitive set, whose ears are we vying for? So we use podcast neighborhoods to identify closely related shows or shows that are reaching the kinds of audiences that we already wanna reach. That's the competition. And then we listen and try and make something that is different better in some way or another, but also on the marketing and promotion side. This idea of podcast neighborhoods is very helpful when you're doing things like or organic cross promo, whether that's feed drops or promo swaps also on paid. And the really nice thing about podcast neighborhoods is that they allow us to look at shows in a way that transcends category or genre. Because the neighborhoods themselves are not based on category or genre, they are based on overlapping audiences between shows, right? So you can take a big broad category like society and culture, which is so broadest to be unuseful, and you can break it up into its constituent parts and find groups of common audiences who. Perhaps more likely to be into the thing that you're promoting than if you were to do a big spray and prey type campaign. So talking about growth, uh, I mean, you know, clearly you've been talking about podcast neighborhoods for some time and people have gone well down. That's all very well, but we're not a Pacific content, uh, client. And so, uh, there we are, uh, that's very nice now go away. Uh, now of course, uh, you, you have a completely different thing because earlier this week you announced bumper a new podcast growth agency for organizations that are looking to find success in the increasingly crowded podcast space. Um, who and what is bumper bumper is a podcast growth agency. And I think it's a product of where we're at as an industry right now. Specialization is the name of the game and we have long put the marketing and promotions. And strategy work behind those things on the shoulders of people who might rather be making shows, cutting tape, doing interviews. And I think we're at a place in 2022, where this specialization of call it podcast growth, call it audience development, call it marketing and promotions for podcasts deserves a specialty of its own requires a specialty of its own. And that's what bumper is trying to do. So we're hoping to work with really smart forward thinking podcasters who recognize that it's not enough to make a show. It's not enough to make a show that has a meaningful sized audience. You need to have a show that reaches an audience and also serves your goals, cuz audience for the sake of audience, you can chase that if you want. But that's a pie eating contest and the prize is more pie. Right. Whereas if you can make a really great show and serve a really big audience and have it serve your organizational goals, maybe that's a brand goal. Maybe that's a mission driven organization's goal. That's that's the trick. So we're, we're, we're hoping to. Push that forward and increase this idea that there should be specialization within our industry. And we, in this case is that's myself and onus SWO, yo SWOT, uh, also X of Pacific content. Now I first met onus in last FM in the UK a long, long time ago. I first met you, uh, when you were producing spark for CBC, um, in about 20 10, 20 0 9, I think it was where I was a guest and I said, absolutely nothing good at all. And, um, I got no idea how I made it to the final cut. Um, but you worked there for 12 years. You left in 2016 to join Pacific content. How has podcasting changed in that time that you've been heavily involved in producing audio? The thing that I have been so excited about and so fascinated to watch is the cohort of people who have come into podcasting. Unencumbered by the tropes and formats and legacy baggage of broadcast. So much of the early days of podcasting was built on top of not exclusively, but a lot of it was built on top of broadcast formats that were time shifted or made available on demand. You got radio programs whenever you wanted, and many people clung to those formats, those tropes, those ways of making shows that have evolved since then. And so I get so excited when I get to work with new and emerging creators who. Are coming at this and their reference points are not radio shows from 20 years ago. Their reference points are podcast native digital first productions that never would have had a home on the broadcast dial, cuz it doesn't make any sense. And so I get really, really excited about that now. And I really think that that innovation both in form and in distribution is what I am most excited about. It's an exciting time. You'll be talking about podcast neighborhoods at podcast movement. So looking forward to seeing you in Dallas and Texas, which I'm guessing is a little bit warmer, uh, than, uh, where you are now. Although, uh, frankly, I've been in Montreal during the summer and that was a, that was a mistake. Uh, how else can people get in touch with you and your colleagues at bumper? We are bumper.com is our website and I'm gonna be doing quite a lot of writing there. Looking forward to doing more of that. Dan, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Great to see you, James Dan Meisner from bumper, you could find out more at, we are bumper.com. So podcast neighborhoods. Interesting. Uh, at the beginning of this, you mentioned that. Dan is a very clever person. I don't think he's a person at all. I think he's an Android. I think he's some sort of a robot that looks at things completely different than the rest of us, but has passed the touring taste. Uh, he's he's really, really good and really smart at what he does. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, incredibly smart. Incredibly smart. And uh, yeah, I mean all, all of the tech that he has built, um, as you know, I mean, obviously, you know, Pacific content will still keep an awful lot of that, but now being able to use all of that knowledge for his new podcast growth agency. And I thought it was very interesting him talking about, um, specializing in certain things, there are lots and lots of podcast companies out there who will make a show for you. And they say that they will also market it. And they say that they will also do various other things, but this is a specific thing for growth of a podcast. And I think that's quite, that's quite interesting. I like the fact that our industry has evolved to the point where. This is viable where we need something like this when it's not a one size fits all you and I are old enough to remember when we might, one of the, two of us might have been called a webmaster yes. Back in the day. Right. And that meant we did everything, but you know, that doesn't exist any longer. Comp companies used to have webmaster and now they don't because now they have entire it teams that are doing stuff. And I think we're seeing something like that happening, not just in all the special skills, it takes to make a type of podcast, especially branded content like Pacific content was, but also really getting serious behind a true growth strategy for that podcast needs focus. It needs dedication and it needs people with the brains. Like Dan, like onus to really make it happen. Yeah. And I think it's a very different, uh, skill set isn't it than, um, you know, uh, knowing how, you know, knowing how Hindenberg journalist works and knowing what, uh, plugin to use for X and Y and Z. It's a very different, uh, thing. And I think that that's, yeah, it's, it's, it's a really interesting, uh, move. So really looking forward to seeing bumper succeed, uh, as I'm sure that they will. Um, and, uh, yeah, no, it's a very good, uh, smart thing. Uh, here's an interesting thing. What a professional Dan is I had to edit one arm out of that interview. That was it. There was robot. I'm telling you he's a robot. He's a robot. This is someone he's an Android. It's amazing. He's an Android. He's not an, he's not an iPhone. he's an Android. No, he's not oh, dear. Anyway. Oh, let's move on to story. Number three. Shall we? Yes. All right. How many downloads. Does it take to get into the apple podcast chart? It's kinda like little question of how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tutsi roll pop? I'm not sure if you catched that reference or not, but it's a very American thing, regardless of that, no idea what you're talking about, regardless of that, Tanner Campbell has managed to get into the top 100 in the us books category on apple podcast, uh, just last Friday. And he only had 10 listens and 24 followers. Yeah. Now that's the lead but I will jump in and say again, cuz it feels like. This is a, an annual or a many times a year or a rather recurring thing where someone says, I think I'm gonna go see how the pop apple podcast charts work. And they always come up with this answer. Don't they? Yeah. Well, yes, I think so. And by the way, the us books, category of top charts, the, there isn't actually a top charts. Category in your, in your app. Um, so what Tanner is looking at, and this is absolutely fine, but what Tanner is looking at is, um, people who show the books, uh, trending chart, uh, as, uh, I wish that apple would call it. Um, but the books trending chart in, you know, uh, through the APIs. So people like chartable and RONIC and those sorts of things. So, um, so no humans sees it, right? Yeah. So I, yeah, so I don't think any humans can see it. Now, humans will see, uh, his podcast appear in the arts, uh, top, top chart, which does appear, right. That's the top level. But I think, you know, it, it is, it is interesting. One of the, uh, perennial pieces of feedback that I give, um, I give apple and they always pat my head and they say, thank you, James. Now go away. Um, is, um, Change its name from charts to trending , uh, because it is it's trending that that is what it actually shows, but I can also see on, on Apple's point of view and they've just changed their social posting tool, um, to even highlight when you've hit the charts, I can see from Apple's point of view, they really want people to be saying, oh, and we are currently number six on Apple's podcast charts, even though it's not a chart. Yep. So, right. No, you're, you're exactly right. And, and of course it only works on apple podcasts as well, which, uh, of course is another kind of thing. Does it make a, does it actually make a difference though, if you appear in, in the apple podcast charts in your experience? No, it has been my experience of doing that in the past. It's a, it's a thing to say that's happened, but as the article you'll read, it's linked in the show notes and the episode details, obviously it didn't really have a measurable impact on. On downloads did it? No, I so far as I can see, no. And, uh, there's also another, uh, similar article, which I discovered for the first time, uh, last week from, uh, November of last year, always, uh, my finger on the pulse, uh, Stephan Guerrero got into the top 50 using social media, the top 50 overall, the sort 50 using, um, yeah, using, basically asking people on social media to follow the podcast, unsubscribe, follow the podcast, unsubscribe unfollow, I suppose, as we should be saying. Um, and yeah, managed to get into the top 50, but it had absolutely no effect on its overall download at all. So again, it's, uh, it's one of those, it's one of those interesting. Yeah, it's a, it's a kudos, it's something. So you can say I've done that, but you know, an easier way to do it is just Photoshop. It just take the charts, take a screenshot, figure out what font it is and just replace it, make you make, make you much happier. And the in case you want to know what font it is, but yes, well, that's, that's, that's just, just, just in case, you know, random knowledge that James I have there that's uh, yeah, no, that's, that's a, that's a, a great point. There's always something cuz I, I get, as you might guess, uh, quite a lot of press releases and there's, there's always, there's always two sort of, uh, red flags when it comes to a press release. One of them is saying, you know, made it into the top 10 of the apple podcast charts. Um, That's normally a bit of a red flag because yeah, really, uh, and the other one is a top 5% podcast in the world. which means that it's. So it's been on listen notes. Exactly. Somebody's been on listen notes and they've looked and they've worked out that it's got more than a hundred downloads, so yeah. Yeah. Bless them. Yeah. We have a lot of stats that don't really mean a whole lot, but Hey, if it gives you bragging rights and, and you feel better about it then I guess fine, I guess. Fine too. All right. So story number four, pod track who's been around since the beginning of podcasting, I do believe is now adding a sales network. Ranker report in the third quarter of this year, according to emails from art 19 to some of its customers, James, break that down for the listener sales network ranker. Yeah. So I think what they're trying to do is they're trying to do, uh, basically what you've already got with, uh, Triton and you've already got with Edison's podcast metrics is to basically give people a list of here are the most popular, um, uh, places to buy shows. So they're not showing that in terms of popularity, of, of, of people, uh, spending money, but they're showing, um, okay, if you wanna reach, um, the number one, uh, um, uh, sales network, then you should be going with iHeart or you should be going with Wondery or whoever that might end up her being. And I think that's really interesting if they're measuring everybody. and I suppose the question here is, are they measuring everybody? And the answer is not really, no, they are not it's pod track. They do not, they are an incomplete ranker, as I've heard someone who sounds similar to you say on a regular basis. Yes. I used to say they are an incomplete ranker quite a lot. And then I thought that's, that's just, uh, I think I'm just annoying people now. So I stop doing that, but they measure participating publishers only as I believe my new phrase mm-hmm . Um, but yeah, and particularly, um, if you look at Edison's podcast metrics S XM media, which is, uh, Sirius XM and Pandora and you know, and a few other things, um, they are, they are not measured by pod track at all. Right. But they are number one in terms of Edison's podcast metrics. And they're number one in terms of Tritons, uh, list as well, and Triton who is owned by iHeart media. Does not measure iHeart media., it's just like, kind of, do you think that these, um, these rankers are useful? Or what, what, what's the use of them? Yeah, I, I, I think there is use for them, but. they're specific use cases, you know, like we've mentioned here, I mean, this is a sales network ranker. So if you are a giant company and you've got literally millions of dollars to spend in podcasting, it makes sense to use a tool like this. So you can see where you can buy to get the largest audience possible. Makes, makes perfect sense for that stuff. I think podcasters, most people listening to this program, you know, it's get tied up in these. In these numbers and in these, in these rankers, in these charts, cuz I'm not, I'm not sure how helpful they are that way. Uh, but, but I think there's, there's some value in them again. Um, um, you know, for individual usage, uh, as well as showing trends, I mean, it's, it's nice to see who's come up, who's come down outta the market. Um, so yeah, I, I think there's some value in it, but I will tell you this personally, I pay zero attention to this cuz it doesn't matter to me really. Mm mm. Yes. Until of course you are, you are in the top, uh, 20, uh, in which case, right? Yeah. If I was Jordan harbinger, I'd care about that. Yes. But I am not Jordan harbinger. And so I don't care about that. Yes. I think I'm, I, I broke to Jordan himself that he was, uh, he had broken the top 20 of the pod track list and he was, he was hugely excited. Wasn't he? he was very excited. Yes. He's an excitable young man in our secret slack. The one we shall not talk about. Yes. Talk about, so yeah. Well good on them for doing something new. I mean, I think you'll see more of these things coming out as the, again, maturity of the industry, uh, and giving charts to people mean things to different, uh, consumers of the information. Yeah, indeed. And, uh, if you are, uh, with the Wondery sales network, I've never heard of the Wondery sales network, but apparently it exists. Uh it's uh, also, uh, used on art nineteen's targeted audience solution. Anyway, if you are with those, uh, then automatically you're gonna get a pod track prefix on your feeds, uh, unless you opt out and you've got until, uh, I think Friday to opt out. So, um, uh, you've basically got until yeah. Tomorrow or today, depending on when you listen to this and depending on how quickly I can edit it. So, um, yes, one, one thing though, I have actually asked, um, Pod track. Where's your privacy policy for audiences? Mm. Um, captivate, which you and I were, uh, an advisor for, uh, they have a privacy policy for listeners. Um, uh, uh, it's very good. I would say that cause I wrote it. Um, but, uh, I, I'm just sort of curious, I don't actually know what pod track does with that data. Um, cuz they essentially see the IP addresses and the user agents of every single person that is requesting a podcast, right. From every single publisher. Right. Who is in the pod track ecosystem. I dunno what they do with that data. Um, And it would be quite nice to find out. So, uh, I'm not saying that pod track do anything nefarious with it. In fact, I'm pretty convinced that they don't, but, uh, it would be good to, uh, understand what it is that they're actually doing with that. Yeah. Sounds like something that should be stated clearly. Yeah, I think that would be, probably be a good, a good plan in the same way that Acast, uh, already does with some of their shows, uh, story number five, tips and tricks. Um, uh, I, I write a, a section called tips and tricks in the pod news, uh, newsletter, uh, every single, uh, day, uh, or, uh, you know, most of, most of the time, every single day when it's, when it's, uh, sponsored. Um, and, uh, I put something in there, uh, a couple of days ago saying this section, maybe a waste of time, argues Evo terror in an article entitled, avoiding the perils of unaligned podcast advice. What are the perils of unaligned podcast advice? Well, uh, and as I replied back to you, if the shoe fits, no, I'm kidding. It's not, it's not a waste time at all, but you know, this goes back to the comment about, you know, where's the value in the ranker. Does, does it matter for me? Uh, where is the value in getting in the charts? You know, does it really matter? There's a lot of podcast advice out there. I know I'm one of the first people to write books about podcast advice, even though Cochran's book came up before moment, but that's fine. Um, I, I gave a lot of podcast advice. I still give a lot of podcast advice, but podcasting has stopped being a one size fits all medium. And it hasn't been that way for, for a very, very long time. And there are still lots of pundits out there that are giving advice and it's applicable to some podcasters, but not all. Uh, there are hosting companies that write really well done. Great. You mentioned captivate captivates growth labs is amazing. Is it perfect for every podcaster? No, it's not. I mean, there are things they suggest you do in there that make no sense for certain types of shows. So the, my argument in there is yes, get all the advice you, you, you can, from people that that's, that's always a good idea, but make sure that their agenda is at least aligned with your agenda. And that doesn't mean growing your show. That's, that's not enough of an agenda. You need to be a little bit more, um, focused on what it is you are looking for, what it is you are offering in your podcast and whether or not that advice makes any sense. You know, a common piece of advice is get a, you know, high powered guest to be on your show. Well, we can debate whether that's a good idea or a bad idea. It's a worthless idea for my show. Yes. I don't have guests. Yes. Right. So here's, it will not help pod news at all. You don't have guests, it's not doing that. So that's just one example. So a thought though, just remember that just because something is a good idea for someone, it may not be a good idea for you and for your podcast. Yes. Which I think is a very good and very wise thing to remember. Uh, maybe that should be a disclaimer, uh, on the, uh, On the tips and tricks thing, advice. Yeah. Right. Advice given for, uh, advice given may not be correct for you, please contact your general practitioner. I dunno. Something like that. Your mileage may vary. Yes. Uh, yes, indeed. Uh, and, uh, you, you gave actually a excellent, uh, tip and trick as we were connecting, uh, which is, uh, if. We're using, you know, a remote recording tool, like, uh, squad cast, for example, then that should be the only Chrome window that you have open. Uh, and if you're gonna read a script, uh, open that in a different, in a different browser completely. So, um, yeah. Which is don't switch back and forth. Yeah. Which is a great piece of advice that, um, frankly, I, I should, uh, I should take down and use. So, um, so I have, well, there's, I've that, there's my payment for this for, to give you a piece of advice you can use going forward. Excellent. All call. Well, there you go. There's a, there's an excellent thing. Right? Let's move on to the text stuff. Um, there's, uh, all kinds of weird and wonderful things going on with the podcast. Verify tag. Uh, isn't there, Eva. Yeah. I took a look at that. So podcasting 2.0 and obviously. Listeners to pod land. No, it's a near, there's always something we're talking about or quite often something when clearly you are a big fan of the podcasting 2.0 movement. I too am a big fan of the mm-hmm podcasting 2.0 movement. And then the new tags that are coming up there, um, I try to stay involved, but I'm not a developer. And so every time I have to click a GitHub link, it kind of hurts me a little bit to, to look at that kind of information. But this new podcast verify tag could really. Really cut down on the spam email from Acast or whoever it happens to be spending it this particular, this particular week. Yeah, no, I think it could. Uh, so instead of using email addresses in RSS feeds, it uses a simple one click claiming process, um, which is just like basically, you know, uh, much the same as login with apple or login with Google. You will basically press one button mm-hmm and it will go off to your podcast host and then come back. Um, and, uh, yeah, and I learned while I was, um, looking into this, that if you have an email verification system, then what that email verification system does, you know, it sends you an email and it says, do you really want to claim this podcast and blah, blah, blah, 25% of people just go, oh, I'm do you know what I, I, I think I can't be bothered. They lose 25% of people by doing that. So there's a real benefit yeah. To get rid of that stuff, get rid of all of the privacy issues with emails in RSS feeds. And instead, just simply move on to a, um, to this kind of oth like, but not as complicated as oth yeah. Thing. um, so yeah. So if you're working for a podcast hosting company, or maybe you are working for a directory or a tool, uh, then please do, um, uh, then, please do go and give feedback on that, uh, proposal. I believe it's pimp two. I believe it's the, uh, it's the new podcast improvement, uh, whatever they call it. Um, proposal, um, uh, because Dave and Adam are teenagers. And so therefore, you know, obviously obviously they're gonna call it Tim pump. They cuz that would be hilarious. Yeah. But why not? Yeah, of course they would they go? Yeah. I, I I'll tell you, I am looking forward to this one being in there because part of the process we go through at simpler media, when we launch a new show for a client is we maintain a list of about 27 different directories and or apps that we submit to. And in order to do that, we I've, I've learned very early on that. I, I create a brand new email account for each podcast and that is the email address that goes in Sovos client 1, 2, 3 gmail.com or whatever happens to be. Right. But in order to that's the email that I get all the email notifications. So those all come to my email. But when I submit these, my production assistant all does a submitting. She has to log in to that separate Gmail account. And field all over the returns, some of which are instantaneous, some of which take days, Pandora takes weeks, yes. To come back in the entire process of doing it. And it's just a, it's a nonstop hassle. It's about a half day's work to submit shows in there. But if it was this simple to where you could submit claim, go to the hosting page. Yep. That was. Fine. You're done. I, it would take us, you know, an hour and we'd be done with the process. So I, I really want this to be, uh, next. Yeah, no, I think that that's is an excellent thing. The other excellent thing coming up, if you, uh, do podcast apps, um, and you use the apple call media S STK, uh, to playback audio in your app, then something very exciting is happening in iOS 16, which is the next version of, um, the, uh, operating system for those toy phones, uh, is that, uh, you will be able to set your user agent. So instead of apple core media, which some, uh, podcast hosting companies give to apple, which is completely incorrect and some podcast hosting companies ignore, which is also completely great. Um, yes, you will be able to actually set your apps name, uh, so that your app gets the credit in podcast host company dashboards. Um, so if you are. If you are anybody that is involved with a podcast, uh, host, and you're listening to this, then, uh, rush off and learn about this new, uh, complicated SDK, just search for iOS 16 in, uh, pod news. And you'll find it somewhere in there. I'm excited about this for one reason, the name and shame you and I will get to do two months after it's been implemented yes. Which apps have not yet changed their user agent and how can we name and shame them into doing so, because I, I think you and I have no problem doing that. Oh no, that will be fun. Well, give them some time, give them time. I've already, I have already warned people that, oh yes, I will be doing that. And I've also given cuz I've got a full list of those individual apps that use that because I, I, I also go back and use the RSS user agent in various other things. Um, right. So I've actually given, I've given apple a full list. I said, good. These are the people, and these are the contact. Uh, these are the contact emails, so there should be no excuse outstanding. yeah. Yeah. And also, if you are hosting provider, uh, I would recommend listener, uh, reach out to your hosting provider, make sure they are ready to update that as soon as they possibly can, because just because it's set in there properly, I, I don't wanna see what I think we will see is apple core media drop drastically. I hope. Yeah. But other other will or other will suddenly swell and, and increase because when your podcast host is parsing that data. They're not necessarily going to know what to do, cuz they would not, not have seen these before. So they need a plan for trapping all of these new ones. Yeah. And then doing something with it. So reach out to your hosting company. If you have a relationship with them and say, what are your plans? Yes. And uh, if you want to also mention the op org list, which is, uh, free and uh, and available for them, OPA w G is the ridiculous name, uh, it's too late to change it now. Um, but, uh, that is a free, uh, list, which, uh, a lot of people help put, uh, together. So that's a good thing, right? Hey, it's time for my favorite part of this show, which is booster Graham corner booster, booster, booster, Graham boost, booster, Graham corner. I can't get more top 40 than that. Oh yes it is pew. Yes. Pew pew, indeed. Pew. Um, so yes, we got like lots and lots and lots of, uh, messages. Um, uh, do you wanna read the first. Uh, the first one, uh, here. Yeah, I will do that. So it was a, a, a big row of ducks boost, which is, uh, 22,222 SATs were sent in. And the question is it came in from castomatic I believe is what that came from. Yes, yes, yes. Castomatic but we don't know who has sent this. Yeah. We, or maybe because they're being slightly rude, right? Oh, it could be. It said, um, give Sam some apple juice and they put the little emoji of an apple juice box, a pop screen. Yeah. And two fists from the microphone. Hashtag mouth noises. Hashtag, um, reverse a SMR. a, oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Poor Sam. This is, uh, um, not, not nice. And Sam has been reading the script on his holiday while he is there while he is there. Um, you know, sipping his. Based juice. Uh, and he said in my defense recording at 5:00 AM, doesn't make for a good voice. Absolutely. doesn't make for a good voice. No doubt. No doubt. I, I, I, I definitely understand that one coffee, if you're having coffee in the morning is not helping thing. It dries things out, uh, green, apple slices, green apple slices. Is that your tip? So if, if, uh, and also, and also, I mean, maybe, maybe getting a nicer microphone, but, um, what, what's the, uh, you know, if, if people are, um, you know, mouth noisy ying, um, and you can hear a bit of, you know, no wrong sort of noise. Yeah. What, what, what's your, uh, what, what's your tips for that? Uh, isotope RX nine and their voice dinos. Oh, it's my it's it's to me to, to clean up, is it mouth D click is a wonderful tool. Every single file we edit at simple media has a mouth DCL put on it. And, uh, and it's, it's kind of wonderful, but I mean, yeah, I mean, the reality is everybody's got a different. Mouth makes different sounds. It bothers some of us more than it bothers other. I hear some of the most popular, um, well actually I'm gonna say not, let's not talk about nos popular, but some of the most influential shows for podcasters, right. People who have been in radio and making work and are making shows that people like you and I, and listeners are listening to, I listen to some of those shows Rob Rosenthal and it's like, wow, he's he doesn't care as much about those mouth noises and those deep inhalations of breath that I do. So there's a spectrum. I'm on the, I'm kind of on the side of let's take out what we can. Uh, but that's not necessarily a big deal for everyone else. Yeah, no, I would agree with that. And, uh, it's one of the reasons why this podcast isn't necessarily as DMed or deur as, uh, some people would like it to be, but, um, also man, I've got, I've got other things to do. um, Uh, Kyron 4, 3, 2, 1 Satz, uh, says, congratulations on the marriage, James, you can now have a beer. You are worthy. Yes. We'll go into that. Uh, in a minute, uh, Adam, uh, Adam Curry has sent us a boob boost boob, and he's just sent the word boob. Guess again. I mean, case next, he didn't know what it was. I mean, he could have, he could have sent you 80 or let's see what it would be. 8 0, 0 8, um, 1, 3, 5. Right. But uh, no, he did not get one. That one. Yes, yes. That would be, or, um, or there was always, uh, 1, 3, 5, 5 upside down calculators. Mm-hmm anyway, Adam, thank you very much for your boob boost of 8 0 8 SATs. Brian of London sent us an Israel again, boost 1948 and says, sorry, I'm late paying for the interview a few, a few months back our topical, where it was. Yeah. Although you should charge more for your interviews, James, not just 1,948 sat 19 1948. Sat is it's not, it's not massive. Uh, but Brian, thank you, uh, for that, uh, and also a random person from, and I always forget, um, the name of this, uh, podcast. App with the picture of the blue headphones. Oh, that is, gosh, I know what it is too. Yeah, I'd go look it up on my screen. But I just said, if you do that, it'll change the audio. So I'm leave it alone. exactly. So let's, let's not do that, but anyway, um, uh, I love the show says, uh, anonymous person, thanks for all the valuable information, um, and sent, uh, I think a total of, uh, 2,500 sets. Um, so that's a, uh, an excellent thing. Pod verse pod verse, by the way, that is the name of the app with the headphones, correct? Pod verse. Thank you. Uh, 2100 sat from, uh, boomy, uh, who now I was wondering who Boomie was. Yeah. And it turns out that it's the other co-founder of Albi, uh, Michael Boomin. And what he has been doing is, oh, he has been using, uh, so the podcast index, uh, has a directory of, uh, of, of podcasts on there, on their website. And some enterprising person has added lb integration onto that, so that you can boost using the lb browser extension from the podcast index website, which, uh, sounds great. If I can work out how they've done it, then I will do that from the pod news, um, website as well. And that's how that came in. Uh, so Michael, uh, thank you very much, Michael Boman. Uh, thank you very much for that. And also a couple of little. Random boosts one from Bisiah podcast, 50 sat and one from Carl six oh seven, a hundred and fifty sat. Uh, we got this week and it gets split 50 50 between Sam and I, 42,299 sat, which if you are in case you're wondering is about $10. Have you been using all of this, uh, value for value stuff? Uh, Eva, I am on the value for value stuff. I, I have it. Um, my, my show is integrated with that. About half of my client shows I've turned on value for value. I have, uh, been using fountain, um, trying to use it as my primary listening app. How's that been in their new beta? Well, it's, it's good. I'm I'm in their beta group in, in, in, uh, in telegram. And so I've been finding some interesting things. I'm actually a lousy beta tester. What I am good though is doing weird edge cases cuz I don't. Subscribe to the same methodology of what podcasting should be as, as Oscar does. And that's cool because there's a lot of things into it. So I'm using it different than it was intended, obviously. So providing good feedback and getting very nice comments back. When, when, when I comment they are, they're very thankful for my reply. So probably ignoring them because I'm the weird case. Uh, but, but yes, I'm, uh, I am on board the train because you listen to an awful lot of fiction, uh, audio fiction, don't you, which is, is a kind of a bit different in a podcast, uh, app, because you, you, you kind of want to start from the beginning, uh, with that. And typically you wanna start, you wanna start from the first episode. Yeah. You're not gee, I wonder what happens at chapter seven said no one ever. Uh, yes. So you, you do wanna do that and it is a, a different experience and here's the weird thing. Um, I have been using fountain to listen to podcast fiction exclusively for the last, let's say three weeks now. None. of the fiction podcast I've listened to are value for value enabled none. Mm mm. I wonder what that. Wonder what that says. Why would, why would that be the case? It's really frigging hard. yeah., that's probably the thing it's too complicated. So there's a lot of things that it says about that, but yes. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I mean, you know, getting easier, but still varied, very difficult and complicated. If you, you know, if you host with RSS, then you can do some various, um, ticking of boxes and then, you know, you end up capturing some values somewhere and yeah, it's, it's still, it's still complicated, but I, but I have to say far, far easier than it was 3, 4, 5 months ago. Completely. Yeah. I, I, yeah, there, you and I were early adopters of it and we're forced to learn all sorts of things that people don't have to learn now. And so that's, that's helpful and it'll, it'll continue to get better. I hope. Yes. I have my little UMBR box in the kitchen, which sits there and, uh, is pulling in, um, uh, Bitcoin and things, things like that. Sam bought an UMBR box, but didn't bother plugging it in and actually getting it working because, you know, yeah, too, that's interesting to see if he should give her as a door stop, I believe is what he using too complicated. Uh, what's been happening for you, uh, this week in, uh, pot land, uh, Eva. Well, as you mentioned, I, um, have I, I mostly consume fiction podcasts, but I have been doing that more and more fiction is where I got started you. Well, I started podcasting back in 2004. We were a radio show back in 2002 and our radio show interviewed science fiction authors. So fiction is really where I got my, my beginning and I, I was definitely there to encourage the. The usage of podcasting in, in for fiction writers. Um, some of the first audio dramas are still friends of mine that I've stayed connected to, but I've been, I've been an avid consumer of that content, but I've never been deeply in, well, I, I no longer am deeply involved. I think I got out of it around 2010 was the last time I was really heavily involved and the game has changed. You know, we know podcasting has changed a lot, but also podcast fiction has changed drastically. And even since I've been back and involved with the game, it, it continues to change. So I'm digging in deeper to that. Listening, learning a lot, asking lots of questions, uh, trying to understand what the state of fiction podcasting is today and where it might. Tomorrow. Yeah, I'm looking forward to, uh, I think pod news has, um, bought, uh, some support for, uh, greater Boston. Um, so for their next, uh, season. And, um, and they asked me how I wanted, cause I've bought some advertising in there and they asked me how I wanted the advertising to be. And I said, uh, well, this is what pod news does. Knock yourself out, do whatever you want. um, so I'm looking forward to finding out what on earth they do with my brand. Yeah. how that gets worked into the story. So, Hmm. Yeah, exactly how that gets worked if indeed it does. Uh, so that should be good. You also do a, you are based in, uh, Phoenix in Arizona, which I believe is, uh, relatively, uh, you know, cool chili plays. Um, I believe that you, you, you also do stuff with a club don't you there? Yeah. Yeah. I, um, I'm helping organize something. We call the Phoenix podcast club or specifically the P H X. Podcast club PHX podcast, club.com. It is a social event. We get together once a month on the third Thursday of every month. And just go to a restaurant slash pub, hang out, talk podcasting, drink beer, eat food. And as it generally socialize with the world, I, I think podcasting is, is great for a lot of reasons. And you can, we can do the whole intimate, medium thing and do our drinking thing. But quite often when I go to podcast events, you know, they're very focused on. Podcasting and people have questions and no one get trained and whatever, and, and those are fun if you're brand new , but they're not so fun if you know what you're doing. And I don't wanna sit through a lecture of how to submit my podcast to apple podcast. That's, that's, that's not fun. So we've taken all the education, all of that out of it and just leave the fun. It is simply a social gathering. No agenda. Come talk about your podcast. You can talk about no agenda podcast, if you want. Uh, and we're just there to have a good time and, and make connections, meet people, occasionally answer questions, but really just support each other and, and build podcasting from within, you know, Phoenix is the fifth largest metropolitan area in the United States. Wow. We have huge popular. You have millions of people that live in and around the Phoenix area. And so it's great to have this little, uh, get together. Every month and just see some new faces and some old faces and generally just connect. It's one of the things that I, uh, really want to, uh, try and do the, the pandemic kind of, um, stopped all of this, but it's one of the things I, I really wanted to do with, uh, we have a Brisbane podcasters sort of, you know, get together type thing. Yeah. We had mm-hmm a long, long time ago. And, um, that has, uh, that has, um, you know, died a bit of a death and it would be nice to get that up and running again. And. yeah. Find an excuse to go out in an evening. Uh, and, uh, and, uh, chat, there are some fiction podcasters as well as a surprising amount of, uh, Brisbane's the third largest Australian city and a surprising amount of people who do podcasting and audio. Uh, here, the ABC's news team is based here and does a lot of, uh, large shows from here as well as, um, you know, as well as, uh, uh, there's a, a company called, um, pod shape, which, uh, also produces a lot of independent shows. Uh, there's some, uh, there's some fiction stuff that goes on here as well. And so, you know, it'd be really nice to begin to, um, uh, bring those types of people. Together once more and perhaps I should, uh, I should get together with, uh, Kyron. I should get together with Kyron. Yeah. And, uh, somebody from the ABC and, uh, yeah, we should be, we should be good. Well, that would be a wide ch I mean, wide spectrum of the type of podcasting, ABC on one side and mere mortals on the other. That's that's a pretty wide range in the middle. That's great. Well, feel free to steal up. Do you do Bri podcast.club? If you want, you know, take, take the idea and run with it. Yeah. Yeah. B and E B E B E podcast. I think it would be. Yeah. Yeah. So, James, what has happened for you in pod land this week? I know you've got some minor thing outta the way. Yeah, not much news. Yes. I've. I've finally managed to get married, which is very exciting. Yay. Yay. Um, after two years of, uh, having to call it off and, uh, move people around and basically mess with people's lives, cuz half of them were flying in from the, from the UK oh my goodness. I you, and I've known each other for, I don't know, five or six years now. And it seems like as long as I've known. You've been trying to get married. Yes, exactly, exactly. To the same person I should point out uh, so yes, yes. That's worth, that's worth mentioning yes. I'm not one of those. Uh, so yes, so that was very nice. And it was, uh, yes, that, that happened over the weekend. Um, and uh, of course, you know, doing a daily, uh, daily newsletter in a daily podcast is, has been relatively challenging over the last week. Yeah. But looking forward to, uh, being able to get a little bit more time before, of course, I go to podcast movement, which I'm also looking forward to you'll you'll be there as well. Right. And is that how you're celebrating your honeymoon, uh, podcast movement in Dallas, Texas yeah. Yeah. We're we're not doing a honeymoon and certainly not in downtown Dallas. Uh, I've seen, I've seen the grassy K. Yeah, what, what else is this a sea . Well, you and I are gonna see plenty of good craft beer pubs all around deep Allen. So we're gonna have a great time at that while we're oh, yes. Mm-hmm we, we should be good. So very much looking forward, uh, uh, to that, but yes, it's been a fun week. Excellent. Uh, and that's it for this week. Uh, if you'd like this episode of pod land, please tell others to visit and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and we'll be back next week with another review and analysis of all things podcasting. You'll also find all of our previous episodes and interviews on our website, pod land.news, give us feedback using a Boostgram or an email, which apparently nobody, nobody uses. So I'm not even gonna mention the email address. And now I wouldn't. Uh, if you want daily news, you should get pod news. The newsletter is free@podnews.net. The podcast could be found in your podcast app and all the stories we've discussed on pod land today are in the show notes. We use chapters and transcripts too. Our music is from ignite jingles, and we're hosted and sponsored by our good friends. Buzz sprout and squad cast. yes, definitely. Two separate words. Buzz, sprout and squad cast. well, I wanna make sure they get it. They get the spelling, right? Buzz sprout squad cast. Yeah. We say that a lot of the time, but I like buzz sprout and squad cast either two words that are mixed together to excellent. It's what do you call that? A co combination of words. I don't know what, what excellent value. Uh, I keep listening.