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James Cridland joined Todd Cochrane from Blubrry, Rob Greenlee from Libsyn, Tangia Estrada from BIPOC Podcast Creators, and Heather Osgood from The Podcast Broker and True Native Media.
This week, the show is from the New Media Show, live on stage at Podcast Movement. This version has been lightly edited from the original. You can find the New Media Show in your favourite podcast app.
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Welcome to Podland. The last word in podcasting news. It's Friday the 26th of August, 2022. I'm James Cridland. The editor of Podnews in Dallas, Texas. Podland is sponsored by buzz sprout podcast. Hosting made easy and we're sponsored by SquadCast the remote recording tool. The creators love this week. Sam Seth is on holiday in Cornwall and I have been a podcast movement 2022 in Dallas. So it's a special show this week. I joined Todd Cochrane from Blubrry, Rob Greenlee from Libsyn, Tangia Estrada from BIPOC podcast, creators and Heather Osgood from the podcast broker and true native media. We were on stage recording for the new media show. And Rob Greenlee started by talking about open podcasting. I think one of the things that's on the mind of at least a lot of industry people is, um, The open nature of podcasting, um, and kind of what's happening with that and where we are today around various aspects of the term open, which can mean a lot of different things. Um, open can be open access, it can be open to participation. Uh, it can be open to global participation, uh, from various places around the world. And so, I don't know if, if somebody wanted to start off here and talk a, talk a little about where we are in your perception of an open, medium keeping that, um, I was gonna talk about a little bit, um, how open aspects of this medium are being challenged right now, but I don't know if James or anybody want to jump in on that to get started. I can jump in. I think one of the interesting things over the last couple of years has been different companies with, uh, different strategies here. So if you go and talk to Acast, they're all about, uh, the openness of podcasting. They're all about the benefits of RSS, uh, the benefits of that for creators, the benefits of that for audiences, if you go and talk to Spotify, you're gonna have a very different conversation there. They right. Very, very much, you know, Mike, Mike Minno who, um, used to work at anchor, he. Is on record as saying that, um, you can't innovate with RSS he's wrong, but you can't innovate with RSS. You can't add additional features and blah, blah, blah. And I think what what's exciting about, um, being here at podcast movement this time is seeing Dave Jones, seeing Adam Curry, seeing lots of people talking about the new podcast name, space, the new opportunities that we have, whether that's transcripts, whether that's closed captions, whether that's a ton of other things. And I think that's really exciting getting that into open podcasting. Yeah, I do think that there's, there's opportunity for, um, um, doing some innovation with RSS and also in cooperation across the industry. And there, there is some talk about a coalition coming together, um, of, of some of the technology hosting platforms and listing platforms maybe working together, uh, to innovate with RSS. And unfortunately that's kind of, that could create a little bit of a, of a battle between the bigger players in the medium and kind of the smaller players in the medium, um, of coming together. Todd, is there any, you know, did you want to comment on any of that? You know, this, if we, if we look back to how, why this industry flourished, when it kicked off in 2004, we don't have the luxuries that we have today. There was the iPod. That was it. There was no social media per, and you had your website and the media was completely locked up by big names, NBC, CBS, ABC radio, and, and in order to get your content out digitally, really, you had to sign your life away and, and be a, a big name. You've had of course the ability to put content on your own website, but really there was no distribution. So when podcasting came into play, it was like a double, middle finger to the man saying, Hey, we don't need you and we can go around you. And I think the industry is still maybe not thinking exactly that way, where we're given the double finger to the man, but I think it's one of those situations where we have to understand the true nature. That open is good and closed means control and gatekeepers. So we're gonna get into the RSS piece a little deeper later, but for me, the real value of being open is, is we have made this, you look at this attendance of this event, all tight whites, black women, white women, men, I'm saying this wrong, but basically we're very, very diverse. Very very diverse in makeup of content creators. We have people here from international. I met a gal from Kenya. That's a billing podcasting in Kenya. So what we have started so many years ago now is spreading internationally and giving underrepresented people, voices. It is a opportunity where no one and everyone can, well, everyone can have a voice. Um, that's to me is what podcasting is all about. The open nature of just really anyone can speak. Yeah, I agree with that. I would add on to that. And I think that podcast, the, the industry is in this really interesting place and in its life cycle where it has, it's like, not like to give it an analogy. It's it's not the kid in high school anymore. That's just kind of trying to. You know, chug its way along and, and fit in. It's it's more like the 25 year old that has graduated from college and is ready to like on the cusp of a new life, but they need to decide who they're going to be. And they have to start to really find themselves that's where I see podcasting in its life cycle. And so I think that we're all at a really interesting crossroads where I think there needs to be some real intention and thoughtfulness around how are we going to shape the future of this industry? And I, I truly believe that protecting the independence of those indie creators is what makes the overall tapestry of the industry so rich and so attractive and so lucrative. And it has to be protected by all costs. So anytime I hear somebody that's. RSS in particular is, needs to go away. I'm like, okay. So like, how are you planning on monetizing this next thing that isn't RSS, because that's the only reason to do that in my mind. Yeah. And I, I think that just to kind of piggyback on what you said, one of the important pieces of podcasting is this monetization piece, right? And when we think about it from an advertising perspective, the reason that podcasts are so appealing to advertisers is because of the uniqueness of the voice. And when you're an advertiser, you're looking to target a specific, uh, demographic of people that, you know, are gonna purchase your product. There is this ability within podcasting to really, you know, just dial in deep and say, I know that by advertising on this show, I'm reaching my potential customer. And when we think about the evolution of where business is at right now, businesses. All, not all most businesses, especially direct to consumer businesses. They do have a, a culture about them or a mission about them. That mission driven business is very important. And so when we think about aligning with podcasts that have a mission that is greater they're, I mean, that is it's, it's so valuable from an advertising perspective as well. And so it's, it's about preserving it for the content creator, but also when we look at monetization, there's a lot of strengths in keeping that openness and independence as well. So as we think about, um, all these, these topics, I mean, I think that one of the core values of podcasting really, at least my perception has been for many years is that it's been, you know, the concept of open means it's open access, right? It's a, it's a level playing field. One, one of the things about podcasting it's always been its strengths is that it is a. Leveling of the playing field cuz prior to podcasting, um, there were big media companies that controlled access and picked and chose winners and losers and, and chose what content to put up. Um, and now, um, you can choose to be a content creator. You can put up what you wanna put up. And I think that's, that's been the core values is the diversity, um, aspect. And I think what we've seen over the last few years is just the explosion of diversity. We've actually lived up to the promise of the medium more and more. And I think it's getting better and better all the time. We got more women involved, more different, um, voices, races, genders, you know, uh, from global scale. I mean I'm, I'm talking to people that are putting together events in Africa, in the middle east. I've been invited to, to speak at these events. Um, it's just, it's just amazing what's happening. I mean, podcasting has always been a global medium. But I think we're, we're just reaching another phase where countries around the world are, are growing rapidly with podcasting. Um, so does anybody else want to comment on that? The, the, the current state of our diversity of podcasting? I do. okay. As my favorite topic. Yeah. Uh, so, so I'll just say I will like die on the hill that the future of podcasting is multicultural. And I don't just mean that, um, in terms of ethnicity or race, it, it just is Yeah. And I think particularly in the United States, everyone needs to take note. We tend to be very insular and very focused on what happens within our own own Bo borders here, but pay attention to what's happening in. With podcasting and how it's really starting to take off in a major way. And, and it's not, it's, it's really elevating underrepresented voices in Africa. The same thing is happening in China, which is a, you know, a closed society and, and people are finding ways to use podcasting, to have some autonomy, to have some agency politically, and it's dangerous for them, but they're doing it anyway. There's really exciting things happening internationally. There's exciting things happening here in, uh, different communities like within bipo podcast, creators with black podcasters, with women of color podcasters, there's all kinds of things happening. And so I will continue to just be saying, look, the future of this industry is very multicultural and I, I sometimes look at these larger companies. Are not engaging with multicultural audiences. And I really think in five years they're gonna be irrelevant and they're gonna be in real trouble with their businesses and they need to, they need to, to get with the program now. So that's what I'll say about that. I mean, I can talk about this all day, but I'll leave it at that. , you know, considering that we, where we are today, there's still this challenge that Indies are feeling. We know that really the backbone of podcasting is made up of probably 90% independent content creators that are the GM, the talent sales manager, uh, show producer, you know, there, there they're a team of one or maybe two or three, uh, while there has been this growth of, of folks finding people to assist in VAs and producers. But the majority of podcasters are very, very small production teams and they often feel now that they have to compete and have challenges competing. With a lot of the bigger shows are out there that make up what I re say is the other 10%. So I often will. I don't wanna scoff at that. I understand the challenges, but at the same point, there's no reason why Anini should have to feel that they can't make it if they put in the time and do the work. Um, because if you compare podcasting to other mediums, if you think about YouTube, you know, how many, every millions of minutes are being uploaded to YouTube every minute or every hour, um, how many are out there? Facebook groups and so forth. You're really, if you look at the number of active content creators, you're really only competing with about 400,000 other voices. Even though there's 4 million shows. There's probably 400,000 active voices. That's nothing that gives everyone the opportunity to grow. And it's the biggest question I always can't ask. How do you grow your show? How do you grow your show? How do you grow your show? So I I'd just like to spend a few seconds here, you know, do you feel these are feeling challenged and what is it they need to do? Do you think to compete so Todd you're you're saying, what do they need to do to compete, to grow their audiences? Yeah. Yeah. If you're an indie and, and I mean, what things can, can, should Indy creators be thinking about, um, as they grow their shows, I mean, commitment, what is it? Focus, you know, bigger picture stuff. I really, um, love to say that podcast listeners listen to podcast. And for me, when I think about growing an audience, it's just really important that you're reaching people who are already in the space. You know, I, I think because we're in podcasting, we think everybody listens to podcasts. But the reality is is that when you actually look at it only about 30 to 40% of the us population actively listen to podcasts. Yeah. So when we think about, you know, sharing, um, on social media, let's say, or to newsletters, I'm not saying those aren't things that you should do, but the reality really remains that if you reach someone who's already listening to podcasts, the barrier to entry is gonna be lower, right? You, you know that they already have the apps on their phone, which obviously we have the phone, the, all the apps, but we know how to use the apps that are on our phone. You know, we know how to find the podcast. And so if you can. Uh, do anything to get your show out there on other podcasts? Um, of course we have all heard about interview swaps. Um, promo swaps are really good. I have heard, um, again and again, that feed drops are super successful. Um, and, and just a quick summary on what a feed drop is. It's when you are able to take your podcast and partner with another show where they put in either a segment or a full episode of your podcast in their feed, typically they're going to, um, you know, start that out by saying, Hey, there's this great new show. You should listen to it. Here's, you know, here's an episode. And then it usually lives there for about 30 days. So I've seen that be really successful. Um, and then the other thing I've seen really be successful is advertising on some of the podcast players. Can I have her counter to that? Absolutely. So I agree. A hundred percent that cross pollination is really important. Podcasters do listen to multiple podcasts, right? So you have a, a huge opportunity there. But when we're talking about and thinking about multicultural creators, black creators, brown creators, um, even folks in the LGBTQ plus community, many times, not many times, we know through the data, that the reason why there's so much opportunity business opportunity within communities of color, who are creating in podcast is because they are growing listenership. They are oftentimes the first person to introduce a whole new community to podcasting. And it has. Of course massive ripple effect across the industry. Because once you listen to one podcast, you go out and you find other podcasts. So for those creators, yes, there's a cross pollination strategy that needs to happen. But I would argue that what they're doing is exactly what they need to keep doing, and that's keep sharing it out with their broader communities because that's, what's bringing their audience in and that's, what's bringing all of you an audience as well. Yes. This medium is a word of mouth sharing. Medium still. I know that there's research. That's come out saying that the number one way people are finding podcasts now is YouTube. Um, I would kind of, um, counter that a little bit and I'm sure Todd would as well that, um, that really what we're seeing there is people perceiving things on YouTube to be podcasts. Uh, but they're not all of 'em are podcasts. Very few of them are actually podcasts. Actually, actually I think we've done some research on this and it's showing that, um, Actually most of the shows that people perceive as podcasts are not, they don't have an RSSV. Um, so, so I think there's an opportunity on both sides for, for those two sides to work more together. , podcasts getting involved in YouTube, YouTube, getting involved in podcasts. So, um, to cross pollinate this, and I think that's gotta happen as we see YouTube kind of develop their podcasting initiatives. When we saw in those last week that they launched a YouTube section, uh, titled podcast. Um, though it's, it's an editorial page, uh, it's not really any kind of technical, um, functionality that they've integrated podcasts yet. Um, but I think it is a little glimpse of what the future might look like. I don't know Todd or James, do you want to comment on. . Yeah. I mean, you know, interesting to see YouTube doing, um, at least a little bit in terms of, um, an editorial, um, destination for podcasts, they have said, uh, earlier on, in leaked, uh, data, which I managed to get a hold of that they will be integrating proper RSS feeds into YouTube. Don't think it'll quite work the way that we probably want the, want it to work, because my suspicion is that they will use that to, um, to pull in the audio and stick the audio onto their, their systems. So it won't work in quite the same sort of way, but I think, you know, that that's certainly something which is interesting seeing, I've always thought of YouTube as being just another podcast player. It's just another place to put your content. This show is on YouTube. Um, uh, the pod news podcast that I do every single day is on YouTube as well as on. You know, smart speakers and all over the place and you, you are finding more audience there. And I think to come back to Todd's earlier point around indie podcasters and what they can be doing to grow, I think really the only difference between an indie podcaster and a podcaster that's working for a big organization, like, uh, Stitcher, the number one, uh, podcast company, or iHeart who weirdly are also number one for podcasts. Um, I think the only difference between those is that they have the marketing and you have to work harder as an indie podcaster to do the marketing. But one of the ways that you can work harder is to get closer to your community, is to get, um, you know, your, your information out there. You know, send me, press releases, send me information. It doesn't have to be a brand new show. You can make up newsworthy. Um, reasons why I should be, you know, it might be your 200 show. It might be that it's the first show that you've recorded underwater. I, I dunno what it is, but, you know, make up something which is newsworthy. And I'll definitely cover that. Yeah. I've always said that, um, I don't care where the audience listens or watches long as they do. And from a listener perspective, they don't care about ours as podcasters. We care about ours for really one reason. It's the ability for us to remain in open space and get the distribution the way we do now, it's a distribution technology. Um, but that said at the same time, it's really a situation where podcasting today, in my opinion, is the last fashion of free. Um, very few shows that have been delisted off of different platforms are actually gone. They still exist in the ecosystem because of RSS, whether you like them or not. Um, so from that perspective, I've always said that, uh, podcasting is this great equalizer that allows people to have a voice. We may not like their voice, but they still have the ability to put a show online and, uh, and be heard. So I guess that's my, my definition of the unique value that podcasts bring to the marketplace. Can anybody add to it is unique to podcasting that we bring to the world or to the marketplace with the content we create? I think it's intimacy. There's a, I think there's a real relationship there. , you know, I, I tell this story sometimes when people ask me how me, how I started podcasting, and I say, I started podcasting because I wanted to learn how to podcast. And I thought someday I'll have a good idea. If you like this show DM me, otherwise it's going away forever fine, no problem. And I thought that's, what's gonna happen. It's gonna go away forever. And then I started getting dozens and dozens of DMS for the next week telling me to bring back the show from people I had never met before. These, this was like not my mom and her friends, right. Or my best friend and, and her friends. It, these were real people and they were leaving me messages saying, wow, that episode really spoke to me. Or I really loved the way that, you know, this question that you asked that really got me thinking, and a relationship was. And that's unique. I mean, I've, I don't see that happening on YouTube. I mean, I'm not a, I'm not really a consumer of YouTube, so maybe that's why, but on any other medium, I don't, I don't have that relationship with anybody. And I certainly don't think that people I've never actually met in real life have that relationship with me. And, and I think that is one of the things that makes podcasting so powerful and so unique compared to any other form of media that exists. Yeah. James, I wanted to ask you, cuz you've been digging into this over the last couple days. Um, what's going on with Twitter and podcasting. Yeah. So Twitter announced yesterday, um, a very kind of them, uh, while I was in the middle of, uh, having a nice beer, uh, that they were doing, um, that they have integrated podcasting or they're working on integrating podcasting into Twitter. It's not necessarily a full podcast app. You can't search for a podcast. What it's giving you is it's giving you a set of, um, algorithm, algorithmically, curated podcast playlists. Um, so there's one in there for news. There's one in there for other, um, uh, topics that you might be interested in. And one of the things it's doing is it, is it pulling in, um, podcasts that your friends, who you follow on Twitter are listening to? Um, so it's a good. Interesting way of, uh, podcast discovery of finding new shows. Although I suspect they're gonna be the big shows that you find through there. Um, but it's not necessarily a podcast app. It's not going to replace, um, you know, apple podcasts or, uh, Google podcast or Spotify. So you think that this is kind of. A a little bit of a new evolution for podcasting that we're gonna evolve in. I mean, are these platforms that you think gonna be, uh, transformational of sorts, uh, to get audience into podcasts or, I mean, I'm, I'm think I'm always nervous about, about using the phrase transformational, because we, we, we are there, we, we got very excited didn't we, when Facebook put podcasts into Facebook in the us and then stopped again, uh, we got hugely excited when Amazon was getting into, into the podcast space and, um, you know, uh, it's a, it's a very good month when I have two listens on Amazon music. So I think, I think we need to be careful in terms of the transformational stuff, but one of the things that I'm very keen on is that we focus as Heather was saying earlier. There's a lot of people in the us who listen to podcasts. There's also a lot of people in the us and around the world who Don. Right. And getting, uh, getting podcasts into places where podcasts currently aren't is really exciting. So the, uh, availability of podcasts in Twitter is great. The availability of podcasts in YouTube, um, if there's still podcasts is great, but also marketing podcasts in a place that isn't a podcast. Um, I am really astonished every single time I get into a, a, a train or onto a bus that there's no advertising for podcasting in there. It's the ideal environment to advertise a podcast. Why are we not using things like that? We all understand how QR codes work now. Um, after this pandemic thing, I don't know if you had it in the us. Um, I certainly haven't. Haven't had it here in Texas. I'll tell you um, so, uh, you know, but everybody knows how to use a QR code. That's a great thing to stick on a poster in a, in a bus, in a bus stop in a, you know, somewhere where you you've actually got, you know, people there. I really love your podcast ads in the wild that you've been putting in. I think it's pretty cool because you're right. It it's, it's great to see ads out, um, that aren't just, you know, within the space and I totally agree. We need to. To think about how we're getting out in front of, of new audiences and creating, um, new listeners. I'm really curious with YouTube. I think, you know, as, as you mentioned, there's this intimacy with podcasting and that intimacy is created so much by that audio experience experience. And of course the hope is, is that we can listen to podcasts on YouTube, but I also get a bit concerned that we're pushing people toward creating video. And I know I had an interesting, uh, conversation with a woman yesterday and she's like, do I have to do YouTube? And I said, well, you know, it's gonna be better. You're gonna grow audience. And she's like, yeah, but I don't wanna do video. That's the reason I'm starting a podcast is because I like just audio and there is so much power in audio. So I hope that we don't lose that. Having Rob and I having done literally video now for 12 years, I think, or I've been doing video for 12 years and we did this show for 10 years live. The one thing that a audio content creator has to remember if they're gonna do video, is you can very easily get into this mode of, let me show you, instead of let me describe this. So the feedback I got from my audience was, oh, look at this, what's on this website and they, you know, the Hey dummy. I can't see what you're talking about. So as long as we remember that the primary audience is audio and you describe what you're looking at. So they don't get left behind. I think you're gonna be okay, but it's very, very tricky. because you can very easily fall into the habit, cuz we're all very visual beings in that. If we're showing something on a screen, you gotta have to remember that, that listener that's just got his earbuds in and are not going to know what we're talking about unless you describe it. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to mention too. Um, you know, I used that word transformational as a little bit of a tease, but it was more, um, I'm thinking that we're still waiting for the transformation and Todd, you can expand on this too of Android, right? Um, we're still under, under delivering listeners on Android. Apple is still the dominant player. I mean, it's, it's not even close. Really. If you look at the actual actual download numbers as comparison between apple and Spotify, um, Apple's still kicking everybody's ass. Um, I dunno. Did you want talk about Android talk, you know, three years ago and kind of Google started or four years ago when Google started to like take an interest in podcasting, I had high hope and then it went for about a year and a half and it, it fizzled out. Um, my perspective's a little different. We, we build a one click subscribe on Android very early on, and our customers always trend to hire on a, on Android because we gave 'em the same experience. Um, for apples you would have for Android, even though it was a little bit convoluted in how you had to get there. But the, I hear it in podcaster shows. They talk about Spotify. They talk about apple podcast. They never mention, or they never remind their audience members that don't use those services that they listen on a, on a Android based podcast. and, uh, and that is probably why Spotify is doing so well. Yeah. If you have a look into, uh, so it's 50, 50 Android versus iPhone here in the us and in Canada. But once you start looking into, um, into much of Europe, once you start certainly looking into Africa, uh, into Asia, uh, there's a lot more Android devices out there. And, um, and I think that's one of the reasons why Spotify is doing so well, because Spotify is available on the Android platform and works in exactly the same way. And I think what would be interesting is I have an Android phone because, you know, I prefer a decent phone that does things . Um, so therefore, um, what I would really like is for apple podcasts, they already have apple, uh, TV plus on Android. They've got apple music on Android. Now that apple can earn money out of Android users by selling them a subscription. Wouldn't it be great if there was an apple podcast? On Android. And I'm sure that they're working on that because a they're not stupid. And B I'll I'll, I'll end up losing another bet with Adam Curry, which I've already lost for last year . Um, but I think, you know, that that could actually be quite a turning point. Um, you know, much though, I don't necessarily want to be pointing everything towards the apple ecosystem because that's also not particularly, uh, good. I would just say, wouldn't it be interesting if those people that really believe in open RSS, um, those companies out there, whether it's, uh, rss.com, whether it's Lipson, whether it's blueberry, whether it's, um, all of the other podcast apps, which, uh, podcast hosts, which are out there, maybe one of the things that they could be doing. Um, putting a little bit of money into, um, our ideal podcast app, something which is independent, something which is kind of looked after by the industry, which has all of the new podcasting name space in there, which has, um, uh, captions from, you know, to it's like an example app, right. To, to put some pressure on the industry to adopt these yeah. Innovative things that supposedly RSS is incapable of doing. And then, and then that way, and, and, and just getting podcasters to say, you know, I don't know, let's call it the future app, but get podcasters to say, find us on the future app or wherever you get your podcasts, at least, you know, at least that would be a great step forward. I think for something which the podcast, the open podcast industry is I is looking after, um, Uh, the, so that we are not giving everything to accompanying co Cupertino, who've been great with, um, podcasting over the last 15 years or wherever Spotify is based stock home. I think James I'll, I'll take a dollar on that action on the, uh, possibility that apple will create an Android app. I, I don't think it's common. I think we have to do it ourselves and I lost a, a dollar on the Facebook thing cuz I thought they were gonna be a 3% so well, I would think if they were gonna do it, they'd have done it by now. Yeah. I, I, I, I think there is something that the, the only thing I wanted to mention too, was CAOs, um, seems to be growing and developing in the third world or Africa and other places around the world. That could be a factor here too. Did James, have you been following the CAOs developments? Yeah. So these are these really cheap phones. Yeah. That you can go and buy. Some of them cost as little as $10. Uh, they run a very simple operating system called CAOs, and there's a great podcast app out there called pod LP, which has actually quite a lot of new features in there works very, very well. And again, I think one of the things in developing countries and I, you know, Tania, you may be able to add to this is the cost of data. Uh, in some countries is very high. That's actually making it quite difficult for podcasting to make inroads. I know that in South Africa, for example, the cost of data is ridiculously high, uh, also in Canada, by the way, weirdly. Um, so things, I, I think we can be doing things there to help, um, uh, you know, there are ways of, uh, giving one of those apps, a smaller file, which costs less in terms of bandwidth and still sounds. , you know, so maybe that's, uh, maybe that's a way in, but I think, you know, going into, um, Ghana, going into Kenya and promoting apple podcasts is probably not the best plan, is it? No, it's not the best path. No, I don't think so. And there are some innovations happening. Um, there's an out called she economy. That is, yeah. In, I believe it it's, it launched in India already. Um, but plans to launch in other countries that have these, these issues around data and just around poverty and, and it's a way for people to use those type of phones that are not as high tech as a Android or an apple. Um, be able to get that content, but also to be able to create content. And I don't know all of the tech behind it, but, um, I have had a couple of conversations with the founder, um, over WhatsApp of all these, because WhatsApp is used all over the world. Right. Um, so it's using these, these quote unquote lower tech, um, options to, to get podcasting into the hands of an entire new population of people to make them both creators and listeners. It's really interesting. It's I find it really innovative. I know that they're, uh, looking for funding. I believe they're, they're doing maybe their second round now, but it's called she economy. Um, really interesting stuff. Yeah. Actually she's working with, uh, CAOs in, uh, in north Africa and, and other places to get distribution in, in Saudi Arabia and other places around the world as well. But, yeah, I I've been talking to, to her for, for a while helping her along. I mean, it's a web based thing too, so you can access it on any browser. Um, but, but it's interesting, uh, what's happening on, you know, just outside of the us and where we're going here, but, um, I wanted to just kind of move on and let's talk a little bit more about RSS, um, and see what's going on with that. I know James, you've been very much involved in it. Todd, you you've been very much involved in and in talking about, um, kind of why we need to innovate in RSS and kind of just some highlights of what is possible in, in RSS. That's really all been developed in, oh, you went dead rock. Okay. I dunno. What's going on here? the, yeah, go, go ahead, Todd. Okay. So I guess I'm just gonna ask this audience real quick. How many have heard of the podcast? 2.0 initiative. there's a few people. Okay. So the, and James, you've been involved with it more than I have, but with Adam Curry and Dave Jones taking the leadership and extending RSS. And for those of you who don't understand what that is, is basically we're adding functionality to the RSS feed and giving it more features. I guess that's the best way to say it. Um, I think we got some, some tailwind actually. It's not headwind anymore. I think we got some tailwind pushing us along. What's your perspective on RSS 2.0. And for those that are maybe watching don't fully understand what's the, what's the four 11 on, on basically extending RSS. I mean, I mean, I think one of the exciting things about. Uh, extending RSS. So it doesn't break anything which is out there. It adds additional functionality. Um, it adds things like, uh, captions. It adds alternate enclosure. So you can do that low bit rate file if you want to. It adds, um, you know, information about location to your podcast. It adds all kinds of stuff, but I think what's exciting about it is that it, um, it, it it's really doing, uh, a lot of additional functionality into podcasting that is openly available and that isn't Spotify producing video podcasting that only works with anchor. Uh, you know, it's none, it's none of that. It's, it's something which is much more open and available. Um, and lot what what's been exciting is lots of different podcast companies. Are beginning to, um, are beginning to support some of these new features. So, you know, whether it's, um, Todd's company blueberry, launching, um, closed, closed captions, uh, which, uh, Buzzsprout has been supporting for a while as well. Uh, whether it's, um, you know, other companies supporting the people tags, you know, who's in this particular podcast, um, which, um, uh, buzz brown and captivate support, you know, it's all of these additional tools, which I think is just adding new functionality to the podcasting world and can in time also increase the amount of revenue that we can make from podcasting two, because your podcasting apps can be cleverer and knowing what's in this particular show and what should be advertised next to it as well. Yeah, certainly there's, um, you know, functionality that is gonna be added potentially if, if the industry comes together and tries to support this in cooperation with the listening apps, Um, you know, transcripts, you know, like Todd just launched closed captions in his web player. And so these are the kind of innovations that, that the industry needs, you know, Todd, did you wanna talk about closed captions? Well, no, you come down and see us. We'll talk about that. But the, the main thing I wanna think about for the community on the extension of RSS is that one of the goals is we keep the listeners in the app and then there's this direct connection to the creator. We're not shoving them over to PayPal. We're not shoving them to some commenting system. The end goal is to keep the listener app in across cross app functionality to allow us to build community, to monetize, to, to have a lot of functions happen in the app. And also have the app developers rewarded, um, being part of the MI, maybe micro earnings is gonna happen through this process. So I think that, um, The key here is we wanna keep the relationship with the creator and the listener and this extension. That's very, very important. Um, yes, I'm a hosting provider, but what I want is I want you to have a relationship with your listener and, and help you grow your show that way through the community building. So I think this is a lot of the focus that's going on with podcast 2.0. So if you're using an app that doesn't have some of the podcast 2.0 features, ask that app developer to do that, put something in there that you may see in the new fountain app or karaoke, or, and maybe these are words that you've never heard before. Go Google them, or go over to podcast index and take a. Go ahead. It it's so important for us to understand who is listening to our podcasts. And I would say that in my experience, that's one of the bigger challenges, at least from an advertising perspective that we really do have is this deep understanding of who exactly is listening. So anything that we can do to move closer to that I think is super valuable. Well, I think it's just, it's really smart. I mean, you hear people complaining and then like being on Twitter and saying things like your host is they're just a host. They don't actually do anything. Right. They're you've probably heard all of, all of this stuff. And I have wondered when I saw that, you know, it seems to me that it, it behooves a host to help the creator own more of their audience. Because if you can help me do that as a independent creator who I don't get paid to podcast, I have other things that I do. I, I podcast as well, right? Like most indie podcasters do, but if you can help me have more ownership and more relationship with my audience, I am going to be so loyal to you. If you have, if you can figure out a way to make that easy for me, I'll give you, take my money, take my money. Like every time you have something new to offer me, that makes that easy and possible for me, I'll give you more money because I care more than anything as the creator about my audience. And it's so hard to know, like I do all of the things to learn my audience. Right. But there's only so much that I can learn through the tech. Yeah. And some of that takes cooperation amongst various levels in the stack of players in the industry. And that that's been a little hard to come by, uh, because as the industry's commercialized Hass gotten more competitive, um, James, I mean, And if you wanted to comment on this, um, about the industry coming together and do you see that as a possibility that we can do that? Yeah. I mean, I think we need to be careful how the industry comes comes together and, um, that we don't end up being, you know, some bits of the industry against Spotify or, you know, et cetera, et cetera, which is, uh, you know, which, you know, may well happen. But I think, you know, um, Uh, a rising tide gathers all boats. Um, a and, and I think if we are working together, it's one of the things that I like actually about the podcast industry. Anyway, we are all trying to help each other. We are all trying to grow our business. Um, you go outside, uh, of, of, of, of, uh, where we are here today and there's a big, um, there's a big, um, uh, um, exhibition booth for iHeartRadio, um, and iHeartRadio looks massive, right? Podcasting accounts for 9% of that company's revenue, it's still tiny. And as we grow, I think there's so much more growth that we can actually have there. And we will get that growth faster if we are all working together for the same common goals and working together, both in terms of. new features in podcast apps, but working together in terms of how advertising is sold, how we talk about advertising, how we, um, you know, how we do analytics, uh, all, all of this stuff. And I think, you know, looking overseas as well and, uh, uh, how different markets are also behaving in other countries, you know, again is really useful in just growing this as a medium for all of us, not just here in the us, but across the world, in terms of where podcasting can actually go. It's very exciting, by the way, it's a media, which is a proper global media, which we actually don't have. TV is very, very local. Radio is very, very local. All of a sudden podcasting is gonna be the first proper global medium, um, that we'll sell in the same way, everywhere that we work in the same way everywhere. And I, I find that, you know, really, really interesting. There's a, there's a chicken and an egg issue at hand too, in that wet come first, a chicken or the egg. Right? Um, for a long time, I had the perspective I have to build for the 97%. And these outlying things that the 3% was, why should I build for that? It's not gonna make me any money. So I run podcasting business. I have to make money. I have to pay bills, but my perspective has changed recently where I'm now thinking more lines I have to build for the 3% so we can educate the 97%. Otherwise we're not gonna move forward. So I really challenge, and I know there's some of our, you know, some of our industry, people in this audience and some people listening really challenge you let's let's get on the bandwagon. Let's, let's, let's move this train forward in adopting some of this stuff so that we can do exactly what you said. Make the creators and have tighter connections with their audiences, whether it through be through monetization, through building community, there's just a whole plethora of things here that we can, we can do to help podcasters grow. And I, I think it's really, really important, but really what does that lead to what's what's podcasting gonna look like in the next two to five years? Um, you know, it's hard to predict a year, but where do you think we're gonna be in two to five years and Heather, maybe you can start with where, where do you think we're going? Who wants to take the first shot? yeah, I was gonna give Heather the first shot. Well, I, I mean, I think that, um, Where I think we're going in terms of an advertising perspective, which is, you know, how I look at at most things, um, is that we know that we need to work together better. Right. You know, I, I think all of the conversations I've had this week have been really fascinating because everyone is saying the same things. We have these issues, how do we solve them? And what we need to do in order to solve them is we need to work together. And I mean, that theme just keeps coming up over and over and over again, I look at dynamic ad insertion as being a really important piece of moving forward as an industry. The reality is, is right now we have millions of unsold impressions every day in podcasting. And if we want to continue to really grow, we do need to increase revenue. Right. And it, it isn't. It isn't great that an independent podcaster can be podcasting for years and not make any money. Right. And we, we have the technology almost, , we're very close to having what we need to really be able to easily through dynamic, add insertion and a combination of host red ads and programmatic ads to create a much higher revenue stream than we have right now. And so my prediction is that we, we know that as an industry and everyone is asking the questions about how we can get there. And I see that the right questions are being asked, which is the important place for us to start, uh, so that we can create a better model where we can all move. yeah. To kinda lead off of that a little bit. Um, you know, the issue of programmatic versus host reads, and then also the concern of, of over commercialization overloading shows too. I think we we're currently probably struggling a little bit with, um, a little bit of an IAL is what I would call it in, in the advertising industry right now where the really big shows are getting a lot of ads. Uh they're they may be starting to get to a point where maybe they're overloaded with ads and that may be giving audience a little bit of a signal that maybe there's maybe too much. And then there's so many other shows that are not getting any opportunities on this side too. And I think programmatic may be part of the solution that's been building for, for, for, for many years. And it's just creating kind of more of a balance. And I think the industry, part of what you're saying, Heather is the industry needs to come together to basically establish. Um, some baseline standards, maybe guidelines, what, however you want to call it, um, around ad load around, um, aspects of frequency and, and other things that, um, maybe will preserve this medium as what it was built around. And that's fairly non commercialized. Um, so anybody, well, you want to add. Do or no, I, I do. I totally agree with you. And I think that there is a concern about ad load and part of that is that we're not doing it correctly. And I, I totally agree that we do need to set standards that we're not gonna run tons of ads. And we frequency capping is a huge issue in the industry right now, um, with dynamic and programmatic, right. Where you hear the exact same ad over and over and over again. So those are the types of things that we need to fix because it's not helping the advertiser get the results they want. And then it's also leading to listeners fatigue. Right. Right. So all of those are, are really important things to address. Yeah. Anybody else want to comment on that one, James? Uh, what's your outlook? What do you, where do you think we're heading? I think we, we are heading probably into, um, a world where we have, um, Uh, open podcasting being one thing, and then the behemoth of, uh, Spotify being another thing. And what, what is very clear to me over the last couple of years has been how Spotify has stops necessarily playing nice with the industry and is now very much raising its walls. It's buying the data that it needs to. Um, it's, it's, it's selling its own ads itself. It's doing all of this stuff by itself and it's, it's a difficult, you know, um, and it's doing exactly the right, the right thing to run a tremendously large popular BI, uh, you know, well funded business. Um, but you know, that it, it, it's kind of in, in opposition to what the rest of podcasting is there for. So what do you think that's happening? Is it, um, the investment level expectations of Spotify to, to perform for shareholders? Uh, that's driving this. Evolution or, yeah, I mean, I, I suppose once you get to a size that Spotify is now, then they don't have to play with other people. They don't have to play nice. Um, and maybe the rest of us do have to play nice. Apple didn't have to play nice either. Um, but you know, apple buy and large, there were times in the past, they didn't. So yeah, of course. Absolutely. And there are still times now with the paid subscription model, which is still a very closed box, but perhaps it needs to be a closed box for now. Yeah. But actually, you know, I, I, I think we are seeing a bit more of that and I'm, and I'm interested in seeing what's gonna happen there. I think further outside of the, of, of the us, I think one of the big things is the growth of podcasting in, in other languages. Um, that's massive. There were more, there were 10 times more Indonesian podcasts, uh, made last year than there the wear English, you know, I mean, it's all of these incredible, incredible numbers out there. Um, and, and actually this time, next week, I'm gonna be in koala Lumpur in Malaysia, um, with the Asian podcasters and, and understanding what's going on in that part of the world. So I find. That's gonna be really interesting because when you have a look at other markets, um, you can see there being a lot of growth in podcasting. Um, the radio companies of course are in there, but actually there's now much more, the French even have a specific word, they call it a native podcast. And a native podcast is something which has been made as a podcast. Um, that wasn't a radio show. First. It's a native podcast, which I love. Um, and I think it's really interesting watching, watching around the world and going, what are things going on fiction podcasting doing really well in France, um, Germany, really growing in terms of the podcast space. Lipson has just bought a German, a German podcast, advertising company, you know, seeing all of that happening. I think we're going to see some tremendous growth and to come back to. Tanja, you were talking about, you know, the growth in Africa, um, and you know, and everything going on there, partially that's being driven by Spotify, which is now available in pretty well all African countries. But I think it's just partially, there are more tools out there to enable more podcasters, um, in, in Africa to, to, you know, to get going. But yeah, absolutely. We're seeing growth. I mean, even in the middle east, my, my stepfather is Saudi and so I have family in Saudi Arabia and the last time I was there, I was just, I was at like a restaurant and I overheard the women at the next table talking about podcasting. I was like, I think I need to go over there. And we had a little conversation and it's, it's really amazing to see the growth that's happening even there, where, you know, you know, two years ago, women still couldn't drive and they're creating podcasts now and, and talking about things that are important to them and, and putting that out in a world in a way that they never could before my perspective is that. Um, women are currently leading the content creation game. There was some information that came out contrary to that recently, but we don't see it. We see women leading the pack in, in creating new podcasts, but I think what's gonna happen is Spotify is gonna be at our intense and pressure to turn the nearly billion dollars they've spent into, uh, a money making machine. And that may come an expense of advertising placed around content that you have on that platform. That'll be monetized against. And I, I wonder if the love affair will diminish with Spotify when that starts happening. At the same time, I've got my own personal internal counter on their external platform. I feel that they're probably gonna roll anchor into Spotify and, and you'll submit at Spotify versus being on anchor. I, I could. That happening. Um, but the there's no doubt there is going to continue to be global growth. The global growth is usually followed or trailed us by about five years. So I think the global growth is just gonna continue to explode. Where, where do you think, uh, Joe Rogan's contract with, uh, Spotify is, is going to run out at the end of this year? Where do you think he's going to turn out? Is he gonna stay with Spotify or go some somewhere else? I, if go back to Lipson, feet is still alive. go, go back to Lipson. He's gonna go back to Lipson. Yeah. I wanted to mention too before we're we're outta time here is that, uh, one area of the world we haven't mentioned in south America and, and 15 more minutes. That's slow. Oh, we do. Okay. That's good. Um, and south America's been booming for, for many years. Todd, I know you work with a lot of, uh, south America. Podcasts, uh, what's going on down there that have you looked at their numbers lately? Yeah. Brazil continues to grow in a steadily space. It is probably the biggest country that is, um, you know, they have audiences down there that would just make shows here in the United States look like nothing. It's six, seven, 8 million listeners per episode in the episodes are five hours long. So it's, it's a truly remarkable market. And if you can speak Portuguese, you could probably do good consulting down there. Um, but you know, I think the other countries continue to trail in south America in, in, in picking up. Uh, but I think we're just gonna continue to see global growth. Mexico is doing, doing more stuff, Mexico there's conferences down there and stuff going on too. One. I, I was just curious that this is a little bit of a step back, but James, what are you, what are your thoughts about how we don't create an us and them environment? Because I I'm so concerned that. It's easy to be like, oh, bad Spotify. Like you're this big, you know, behemoth. But the reality is is that if we create an us and them we're gonna lose, they've got a lot more money than the rest of us. Right. So, I mean, I don't know. Do we, are there any thoughts about how we can try as an industry not to do that? Yeah. I, I think that's really interesting. I, I, I would love, I would love Spotify to be working more with, um, the rest of the podcast industry. They've D they've done a good job in terms of supporting creators in the past. They've done a good job, a good job, you know, of supporting creators. But, but I think, you know, the more technical side, perhaps the changes in management at Spotify, there's quite a lot of changes going on there at the moment, perhaps that will, that will help, um, you know, that, but I, I agree. I mean, I don't think it's a, I don't think it's a good thing. Um, and it will be lovely to, you know, hold hands a little bit more with the Spotify, you know, uh, with, with the Spotify experience, they're always testing stuff. They're always trying stuff. They launched podcasting into the Spotify app in New Zealand to, to, to months ago. Um, uh, this month they've put, uh, voice commenting into the app for music, music, playlists, and they're testing that in Vietnam. Um, so fascinating seeing what Spotify is doing. They're clearly trying stuff, seeing what, what will stick, what will work. Um, so, you know, it will be great if that was, um, you know, it'd be great if we see more of that, but shared across the industry. And I think some shows. Getting more pump or more, more of a bump, excuse me, in Spotify than others. Um, it definitely attracts a certain demographic of shows, age, group content. Uh, this show does nothing on Spotify. Um, from a, from a listener standpoint, as you one would expect, it's really not content that's geared for a Spotify audience, but I think Spotify has become a pretty significant walled garden. I don't know if they wanna play to be honest with you. And, uh, we'll see, but you know, who wants to go and listen to voice comments from your show and Spotify, another place to go collect data where you don't really have this a good opportunity to interact with your audience? Well, I think that Spotify is, if we're talking about Spotify specifically is at a, I don't know if there it's quite a crossroads, but they're at a place where I think they're starting to take a different look at. Their brands and are thinking a little bit more thoughtfully about what the impact of their brand has been in the world at large and not just on, on podcasters, but like across the music industry. Uh, I had an interesting conversation with somebody, um, that called me up and asked to survey me, they were doing some work with Spotify about my perceptions, um, as someone who co-founded by podcast creators and what I'm hearing, it was just a very interesting conversation to hear that they are at least somewhere in the organization thinking about impact. And I think that's new. I think it's probably a result of some of the fires that have happened with their brand recently. And I think they are trying to think a little more bit more thoughtfully. And so it could be an opportunity right now while they're doing that for. anybody to reach out to them and sort of encourage that collaboration and, and share about impact. I think though, I would say early on, um, Todd and I, uh, worked very closely with Spotify to, to help them get podcasting launch and got it going. I mean, it was a little bit of a, of a sputtering process over many years. Um, but you know, Todd and I have have, you know, worked hard at various companies. I've been with a couple of companies since Spotify's been active in the medium. Um, so very early on, they did work with the podcasting medium, very closely, but I just, you know, and Todd, I don't, you can give your, your impression too, but I, it just, when a company takes action, that is in opposition to the values of what built this medium that is gonna create friction. Now, granted business interest is business interest. Um, but. I do think that they've created the bed that they're sleeping in right now. And, and I think that's, you know, it's gonna take some outreach on their part. I'm open to, to developing a better relationship with, with Spotify as well. I, I thought I always had a good relationship with Spotify actually, but, um, but I do know that there's been some criticism I'll talk. Yeah. You know, it's the, the communication we hear from is the de platforming of shows. Um, we get that report whenever that happens. Um, it's really, the communication is, is pretty much dried up from that standpoint. But when they said we're not gonna turn our assess speeds on default by anchor users. That was to me, actually, it was kind of a good thing because we couldn't get all the millions of dead shows in apple podcasts. But, um, that really sent a signal to me that they were going there alone and they were gonna do their own thing. So we'll see. And it all really what it's up to is you as a podcast, Creator to communicate either pleasure or displeasure of what they're doing. What I'm gonna do is you're not gonna make any sense or, or not make any difference, but we're gonna continue to move forward regardless in supporting the open space. Um, you know, I, I've always had this saying that, you know, you take my RSS feet outta my dead hands. It's I'm gonna be a prove of RSS until the end. So, um, I, I think open is good. We're still, I'm not worried about the space being coming closed. I think we just need to keep advancing the space. We've got about 10 minutes and I want each of you get a chance before we take a few questions from the audience to talk about your businesses and what you're doing. So try to get a couple minutes each, just let the audience knows what you, what you all. well, I wanted to, to, to maybe we can start out with Heather talking about a new initiative that she's working on, helping podcasters, um, sell their podcasts. So don't you tell us about that? Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I've been working, you know, with hundreds of shows over the years and had so many instances where podcasters get very tired of their shows and they are like, gosh, I'm, I think I'm just gonna stop producing episodes. And I've always been like, no, don't do that. Your podcast is super valuable. You should sell it. But of course there hasn't ever been a very good, easy vehicle to actually sell podcasts. So, um, I have partnered, uh, with Ben Richardson and Alberto firstname.lastname@example.org and, um, and James is an advisor of ours as well, which has been really helpful. And we've started the podcast broker and, um, on that we can list your podcast for sale and then, um, others can come and buy them. And we've launched that this week and had a really good response to it. Super excited to get that started. Yeah, it's been around a long time. I've I I've known maybe half dozen podcasts that have. Sold successfully, um, and transitioned it, it can be a little tricky transition when you think about it. Um, but does anybody else have anything go, go ahead and Ji and tell us about the, the bipo community? Sure. Bipo podcast. Creators is an online community for creators of color across the entire space. Um, so it isn't just host like indie host doing their own shows. We also have members that are editors, sound, engineers, uh, people that work in like the back office in podcasting companies, uh, various places throughout the industry. Our goal with our members is to support them in reaching their full potential in the industry, whatever that means to them. So we're not the, we're not the 1 0 1 group. Like we don't do how to start your podcast and how to pick a mic or stuff like that, that exists all over the place. Uh, we're really about those creators that are on the, in between space they're here. They're building something. And they're they want to sell it, or they want to build a career in the industry and they need help with connections, with resources, with networking, all of that. So that's what we do on, uh, the creator side on the community side. We're also a consultancy and we work with media companies to help them increase their multicultural engagement. Um, it's really exciting, but the thing that we're really most excited about, and the thing that we're most focused on is that we are with our creators is we are building the premier talent pipeline for creators of color across the industry. We have lots of companies that come to us saying, I need this kind of talent. I need that kind of talent. And again, if you have, if you are an independent person that has come into the podcasting industry, you probably don't know anybody. And we all know that careers are. By networks, by people that, you know, um, and so we are creating those connections between our members and the companies and the opportunities, and we're, we're watching it grow. So we're excited about that, James, anything new to pod news or anything cooking. um, I, I mean, just keeping pod news going over the last week has been, has been entertaining. Um, , it turns out it's quite difficult to write a daily newsletter if you are busy doing other things. Um, now, I mean, I'm, you know, I'm really enjoying putting pod news together. Um, I hope that everybody, um, listening and everybody that's here in the room, uh, is, is, uh, signed up to email@example.com. Um, and I think one of the things I'm trying to do is just make sure that there's data and information about, about, you know, the entire industry available so that we can continue growing the industry. I think that's that that's a really important thing. So that's one of the things that I've been, you know, very much focused on is that, is that growth of the industry we've got about six minutes. Anybody got any questions from the, the in-person audience here? I know there's gotta be at least one thing you wanna ask. no pressure here. . Um, I, I seeing there's been no questions. We, I guess the, the thing about podcast movement, if we think about this evolution of this event over the years is that, um, from the inception of the event, it's always been about bringing like-minded people together, having great conversations, having, uh, great sessions where we can go learn and, and, and mixed ideas and information. So I'm just hoping, um, seeing everything has happened this week, that as we, uh, get ready to go and consider coming back to podcast movement next year, that, um, this is really what this community is about, is about being open to ideas and, and discussions. Any thoughts about the event or any comments? Uh, Rob? Yeah, I think that, that, that's a key thing. The thing about, I think I mentioned this earlier is the. The diversity of ideas and thoughts, uh, has always been core to this medium. Um, and, and making sure that that is, um, embraced, uh, I think going, going forward is a great thing to take away from this conference. Uh, and then also just mention that podcast movement. The next event is the evolutions event in, uh, Las Vegas coming up, uh, next year. And, uh, I believe it's in March in March. Yeah. And then, uh, right. And then the main podcast movement event is happening in Denver, uh, next year as well. And I believe that's in August as well, so I'm gonna be there for both of them. so did we get through everything at our list? Have we run out. there's always something more Todd, but I, I just think we can just move on with our day . So, uh, if, if you're not already go ahead and subscribe to the new media firstname.lastname@example.org followers subscribe, please. And, uh, again, if you listen long enough, you'll get a PhD in podcasting, Rob, and I bring all types of folks on the show and often times it's just him and I talking about the space and seeing what kind of trouble we can get into. Uh, but I wanna thank all of you that have been here live, and those who have been watching live as well. Yeah. Rob, go ahead. Yeah. Uh, thank you so much, uh, for spending time with us, whether you're watching us on the live stream or, um, here in person. I appreciate it a lot. I can certainly be reached. Um, I'm on Twitter at Rob Greenley. Um, I work for Lipson and my email address is Rob G lipson.com. I'm email@example.com blueberry without the ease, cuz we couldn't afford them. And at geek news on Twitter and anyone else wanna give out their contact info? Yeah, go ahead. Uh, the podcast broker.com is where you can go to list or buy a podcast. Um, and you can reach me. I'm very active on LinkedIn, Heather OSCA again, I'm tan Estrada. You can find me on Twitter at Tangi Renee. Um, our website is bipo podcast, creators.com. Um, and we have a Twitter account too. I, I, man, both of them. Either one, it's fine. uh, and I'm firstname.lastname@example.org. And I also produce a weekly podcast called pod land, which, um, many people are listening to right now because, uh, this show is going into pod land as well, uh, this week. Uh, so if you are a fan of the new media show and you want to hear even more, um, even more white men talking about podcasting, uh, then, uh, by all means do, uh, you'll find that called pod land in your favorite podcast app and also in Spotify. Thank you for attending, and we'll see you next time here on the new media show. Thank you so much. Thanks. And that's it for this week. Thank you so much to, uh, Todd and to Rob for allowing us to use the audio, uh, from the new media show, new media show.com is where to find more of that. If you're like this episode of point land, tell others to visit and subscribe wherever you listen to podcast, we'll be back next week with a normal show with Sam and me, another review and analysis of all things podcasting. You can also find our normal shows on our website, pod land.news. Uh, you can send us email email@example.com. And if you want daily news, you should get pod news. The newsletters firstname.lastname@example.org. The podcast could be found in your podcast app. Our music is from studio dragonfly. We are hosted and sponsored by our good friends, buzz, sprout and squad. Keep listening.