James Cridland: 0:00

From Pod News. Welcome to Pod Land, the last word in podcasting news. And the last pod land. It's Friday the 4th of October, 2022. I'm James Criden, the editor of Pod News.

Sam Sethi: 0:10

And I'm Sam Sethy, the host of the upcoming new podcast Off the Mic. Coming soon.

James Cridland: 0:16

And coming up today, Adam Curry and Dave Jones talking about the podcast Index Pod Land is sponsored and hosted by Buzz Sprout. Last week, 3,555 people started a podcast with Buzz Sprout. Now there's Buzz Sprout ads to grow your podcast wherever it's hosted pod lands, our weekly review where Sam and I review the week's top podcasting stories covered on pod news. Welcome to episode 100, which is, I'm terribly sorry, everybody. Our final show.

Sam Sethi: 0:45

Uh, James. Hello . Uh, the episode 100. Why is it our last show? Come on.

James Cridland: 0:52

so I was at Podcast Movement, uh, uh, in Dallas, , earlier this year while you were waning it off, you know, drinking, uh, fruit-based drinks in, Italy and I think in, uh, Cornwall. And anyway, lots of people coming up to me and they said that they listened to this show and they really enjoyed it, but then they called it Pod News, or they then called my Daily Newsletter Pod Land, or they called this show Pod, Pod News or My Daily Show Pod Land. And it is just, it's super confusing for everybody. So all of that stops from next week because we want to make it easier for everybody. So as of next week we'll be called the Pod News Weekly Review. And the show will be a little shorter. It'll sound a little different, but it'll be here in this feed as usual. You don't need to do a thing. Sam will be here. I will be here. Sam has a new microphone and new headphones. It's all gonna sound fantastic. And it'll be every Friday from here on. Have I got that right there?

Sam Sethi: 1:48

Every Friday is when we'll drop it. I think that's the perfect example of, uh, you and I agreeing on the fly

James Cridland: 1:54

Well, I, yes, I, I think that's probably how it, how it works. We're recording it on Thursday, but because of, um, because of, you know, life, uh, normally it actually gets published at about 11 o'clock, um, your time in the evening on Thursday, which doesn't really work. So, uh, yes, so it'll come out every Friday from here on in. Uh, probably the same time though. Uh, the POD News podcast has been called Pod News Daily for a few weeks because it is, it's an update with today's news and we'll also have a show called Pod News Extra where we can put additional interviews, uh, and other long form stuff as. And hopefully, um, we'll get some more sponsors. So if you would like to sponsor the pod News Weekly review , then uh, please do get in touch. We are weekly @podnews.net and you'll find Sam and I at the end of that. Uh, and it will be lovely to hear from you.

Sam Sethi: 2:43

Few. I thought that was goodbye, but it's not. Goodbye at all. It's goodbye to Pod Land and it's hello to Pod News or weekly review. Unfortunately though there is a goodbye that we have to talk about. Uh, I just noted last night, uh, Evo Tara has said it's goodbye to podcast Pontifications. He said, I'm choosing to shut down production of future episodes of podcast Pontifications for a lot of reasons, but they all trace back to a single reality. Podcasting has outrun my ability to keep up with all the changes. I know how you feel, Eva. Uh, I'm helping people who love fiction audio books, audio drama, radio theater, discover, great fiction podcast, and I'm doing this with a newsletter. I call the end. Wow. 600 episodes and out,

James Cridland: 3:29

Indeed 600 episodes and out. You should get his new newsletter. It's very good. You'll find it out at the end. Or one word.fyi. That's the end. Fyi. I went there today cuz I'm covering this in, uh, pod news today and looked@theend.fyi and it looks awfully familiar. Uh, it's really, it's really quite funny. It's basically the pod news front page, um, that he liked so much. He's produced an homage to it and I really like it. So there we go. Uh, Sovos a good man. You should, uh, follow that. And of course friend of the show, he was in indeed a stand in Sam, Seth one week and did a fine job. So,

Sam Sethi: 4:07

Better than I did. I, I can tell you that now for certain. I enjoyed it much more.

James Cridland: 4:13

So there we go. And our sponsor, Buzz Sprout has been busy, haven't they, this week.

Sam Sethi: 4:17

Yeah, it's the end of email from them. Gosh. Seems like the end of everything this week. Um, yeah. Buzz Sprout no longer Need your email. Uh, following a growing issue with spam email to podcasters and after Apple said they no longer need emails in feeds, Bus Sprout has become the first major podcast host to remove email addresses from RSS feeds. They'll give you the ability to add them back temporarily to help claim shows. Uh, James, what's this all about then? Why, Why no more email?

James Cridland: 4:48

Well, I mean, in the middle of any podcast, RSS feed is somebody's email address. That's always been the standard, uh, ever since 2004. And, , Apple Podcasts, , said earlier on this year that they won't support the iTunes owner tag from next year. Since podcasters can already designate their email address in Apple Podcasts Connect. And in fact, the more that you chat with the folks at Apple, the more that you realize that they're not using the email now even., so, uh, Buzzsprout has been the first major podcast company to basically say, Right, we're going to take email addresses out of rss all., I actually pulled, uh, the email address out of one of my podcasts, uh, a good number of months ago just to see if it, uh, caused any problems and it doesn't. And, um, emails are now out of, um, all of my, uh, podcasts as well, which is, uh, a good thing too. And. Ties in with a new, uh, podcast namespace tag called podcast txt, which is essentially a way for podcasters to claim their podcast. It's just, you know, you put a piece of text in your feed to claim your podcast, put this random piece of text in and we know it's you. Uh, and that's a very sensible plan. Uh, and that has been, uh, formalized and I know that, um, uh, Transistor, for example, already support that, which makes a bunch of sense. So, um, yeah, it's a good thing. We've been, uh, at POD News we've been talking about, uh, email and spam for a long, long time now. So it's great to see that that is finally going away from RSS feeds.

' Sam Sethi: 6:28

Excellent. So maybe the end of spamming, I guess it requires everyone to adopt it, but let's see, how many do, moving on, uh, Amazon Parcels Up ad free podcast for Prime users. Come on, tell me more.

James Cridland: 6:43

Yeah, so Amazon is really going up against Spotify. So, , until recently if you used Amazon Prime, which is what, you know, 13 or$14 a month or whatever it is, then you got access to 2 million songs. And, um, inevitably they were the songs that you didn't really want., but now the service is., basically any song available, a hundred million songs available on shuffle. So you can't actually say, I want to hear this exact song, but you can say, I want to hear all of Justin Bieber's excellent, uh, work. And it will shuffle through those. Uh, so you get access to all of those included in your Amazon Prime subscription. But what you also get is the largest catalog of ad free top podcasts. And that's not just Wondery, which Amazon owns. Of course, that's not Amazon originals and exclusives, it's other publishers as well. They haven't actually told us which other publishers it's likely to be. Future James here. Yes, they have. They've just announced it. It's going to be lots of stuff from a cast. But that's, uh, a big move from Amazon. Basically, , rolling the tanks up against, uh, Spotify's Lawn and saying You will get ad free podcasts with, , the new version of, uh, Amazon Music Prime.

Sam Sethi: 8:01

I listened to, uh, Neil Eli Patel on Decoder, which is from The Verge. He interviewed, uh, the Amazon vp, Steve Boomer, aptly named for the music service that they have., and it was a really good interview if you want to hear more about what they said about both the music and podcasting and why they've done it.

Steve Boom: 8:20

When we talk to consumers, what do they want? The biggest thing they don't like about podcasts is all the ads , not surprisingly. And so we focused on building a great catalog of stuff that people like to listen to and making that ad free. Some of it's gonna come from Wonder, which is a podcast studio that we own. Um, but a lot of it's can be from big brands that people are listening to outside of, uh, Wonder. So we're excited about.

Sam Sethi: 8:44

it's a really good interview to have a look at. But fundamentally, yeah, you write James, they are going after Spotify, a big style

, James Cridland: 8:51

I mean, obviously it helps that they own Wondery obviously as well. That said, Amazon music's not very big., according to Buzzsprout, our sponsor, they are a not 0.7% market share of all podcast downloads. That said, but buzzsprout, half of their downloads are in the us. Half of their downloads aren't. If you have a look in places like Japan, it is really large. It's the number three podcast platform for some weird reason. Um, but, uh, Amazon music is probably not going to move the needle for some time yet in terms of podcasts. But, you know, it's, it's a thing that they are doing so interesting seeing.

Sam Sethi: 9:26

Yeah. It also Amazon Music are now including short curated clips of podcasts. This is, what's this, James? A clipping service that they've included.

James Cridland: 9:35

Yeah, I mean, it's not a clipping service, it's a editorial piece of, um, curation that they're doing with a number of different shows. Um, on there, it sounds as if they have reached agreement with various podcast publishers to, uh, be able to clip their shows up because obviously when you clip a show up, then you are producing, uh, a new, uh, piece of, uh, content. And so it's a copyright thing., but it's an interesting way of, uh, helping people find new shows. So, um, that was quite nice to end up seeing. That will be on the front page of the Amazon Music, , app for podcasts. Um, and, uh, when Amazon gives, Amazon takes away because they've also fired half of. AMP live radio division. So AMP is a app which you can only get in the us you can only get on iOS phones, you can't even get on Android phones yet. And they have fired half of the staff that work on that app, which amazingly is 150 people. What are 150 people doing running? Um, essentially a little, a little music app that hardly anybody uses Um, well, I mean it's 300 people who are running it cuz they've fired 150 of them. So what on earth are they all doing?

Sam Sethi: 10:50

I've never heard of Amp as in, I've never been able to hear it because it's only available in the us. Um, but yeah, it won't be missed, I'm sure. But going back to Amazon and their podcast strategy specifically James, I mean, ad free podcasts. I know that they said that all their catalog will be available elsewhere with ads, but do you fundamentally think Amazon will be able to move the needle and take on Spotify and Apple or is this just the last roll of the dice from them? You know, we'll chuck everything into the kitchen sink with Prime and please, please, please come and play in our playground because we've got nothing else to.

James Cridland: 11:29

I mean, I, I was very bullish and excited when Amazon, uh, launched podcasts in the first place. They seemed to do it the right way, albeit, , only in certain territories, which was, um, a bit of a mistake. But, um, I mean, they really aren't doing anything. I mean, nor 0.7% market share really isn't much of a thing., and I wonder quite how many people are going to be thrilled and excited about being able to listen to various things on Shuffle. I can listen to, you know, my favorite album for free on Amazon Music Prime, but in. So all of the songs are the wrong order., for some people they won't care about that for other people. You know, that's, that's a big deal. And actually for some musicians that they will be, um, quite frustrated about that too. I mean, anything that puts podcasting in front of more people, , is a good thing. And Amazon typically is used by people that aren't necessarily as tech savvy as, um, some of the other services out there. So perhaps it's a good thing, but, uh, I think we'll have to wait and see.

Sam Sethi: 12:36

I also wonder, will they ever, I doubt they will, but will they ever bring Audible into one?, , service I guess cuz now that Spotify have got books and audio and, uh, podcasts all under one hat, , it seems odd. It's, it's an oddity to me. Why Audible still is a separate company outside of the Amazon fold in terms of the website doesn't link through. You can always tell it's a separate app that you're going through from Amazon.

James Cridland: 13:06

None of that really makes an awful lot of sense to me, but, um, perhaps, you know, it's just, it's just different contracts that they've got with different people. But, um, yeah, it doesn't make an awful lot of sense to me. It has to be said.

. Sam Sethi: 13:17

Well, let's move on. Um, is podcast advertising on the Rise, it it seems from what you've been writing this week, James, that podcasting is on the rise and so is advertising., first off, uh, you wrote about podcast advertising continues to increase quarter by quarter. In the US it's up 2.6% according to Magellan ai so James is podcasting on the rise and is the advertising that goes with it on the rise.

James Cridland: 13:45

Yeah, I think all of this is good news. Um, we are expecting a recession. We are seeing all kinds of recession like things going on, but the amount of revenue going into podcast advertising is going up. Uh, Libsyn's advertised cast reports a rise in average cost per thousand in October, up to $24 26, which is the second highest figure on record. Um, it's a, uh, slow growth monthly, not 0.4%, but monthly, and it's a 3.3% annual growth. You then gonna have a look at. Uh, companies like Sirius XM who've seen an increase of 37% year on year in terms of podcasting. Albeit it's only 5.3% of that company's total revenue. So there's a lot of that going on. There's also a lot of, advertising money, coming in in other platforms as well. And certainly commercial radio here in Australia has seen another record, uh, quarter. So I think, you know, it's not necessarily bad in terms of, um, the, uh, news out there. I know that we've been reporting on lots of people losing their jobs and, uh, lots of cost cutting going on, but actually the amount of, um, revenue in terms of advertising is still actually going up, and that's a good thing.

, Sam Sethi: 15:00

Sound FM pulls out of hosting. That doesn't sound too good to me. James. Uh, a couple of weeks ago you said they flagged up, uh, an announcement more just share in the coming weeks about our company evolution when it seems their company evolution is that it's closing. The podcast hosting platform is everything over K at sound.

James Cridland: 15:21

Yes, I think everything is very much okay at Sounder. So 5,400 podcasts will need to find a new home. Uh, the company is moving some of their largest creators to Sprecher, but also Libs in and co-host have both offered six months free with their services if you're moving from Sounder. And I'm sure that others will be saying that as well. I think it was a little bit cheeky of Sounder to basically say we've got more to share in the coming weeks, um, without actually just announcing the fact that they were going to close their podcast hosting platform. But they are focusing on, uh, brand safety. They're focusing on brand suitability and all of that kind of stuff. And they see the podcast hosting work that they do as being a distraction from that. I, I suppose it's, um, it's the classic pivot, isn't it? They found something that they are getting real, uh, traction on and, um, they're getting rid of, um, the very crowded world of podcast hosting. And, um, you know, and that's, and that's an opportunity for quite a lot of people.

Sam Sethi: 16:27

They also, uh, shared a summary of a white paper that the company shared with the Gar Steer Committee. Um, it outlines how the company applies Gams current brand and suitability framework to audio content and the company's automated solution. Who or what is Garam James and what does that mean?

James Cridland: 16:46

Well, GM is all around brand safety. So, and what nobody wants necessarily is, um, to, for example, advertise guns inside a kids' podcast. You know that, that's not a plan. Um, so GM is something which is set up by the World Federation of Advertisers. It stands for the Global Alliance of Responsible. Uh, and it's, uh, everything that the podcast industrial, , complex would, uh, like you to think about brand safety and sustainability and all of that, uh, sort of thing. So they basically work out whether or not a, um, a podcast is a suitable podcast for something particularly to advertise in, clearly that's something that, um, podcast advertises are keen to have a look at. And so that's, um, that work, which is going on at, uh, the moment. It's still very, very nascent. Um, but, uh, clearly, you know, if you are taking advertiser money, you don't necessarily want to be turning around and, uh, putting those ads on things next to things that, um, reflect badly on that particular advertiser's.

Sam Sethi: 17:55

Oh, well, good luck to Sounder. We'll be watching to see how they do with their new strategy. Now, Spotify, uh, it seems that Spotify's now recommending podcasts. James, uh, last week we talked about how they're using a bit of screen real estate to advertise their audiobook. So if you were listening to, for example, uh, Ever Long from the Foo Fighters, you might see a book by Dave Gro being recommended at the top. Well, a friend of the show, Christmas Senior, has said that they're now promoting podcasts, uh, at the top of other podcasts. So for example, if you are listening to Karara Swishes on with Carra Swisher, it would promote a intro to the Vulture Podcast with Sam Sanders. Um, is this a good thing that they're doing, James?

James Cridland: 18:44

Yeah, I mean it's certainly something that they, uh, ought to be doing with the amount of data that Spotify has. I would point out that both Intuit with Sam Sanders and on with Carra Swisher are both called very silly names. And secondly, they're both, uh, published by V Media. So it does seem to be a cross promotion from one V Media podcast to another. I dunno whether that's just, , the screen grab that, uh, Chris, uh, managed to get or whether there's something a little bit. focused by Vox Media there. Or May, maybe this is a paid for thing by Vox Media into Spotify. Who knows? Um, but uh, yeah, I mean, anything that Spotify can do or indeed any other platform can do to promote, uh, different podcasts, to get people to listen to more podcasts. Remember, you know, the typical average American listens to less than five podcasts a week. So if we can manage to push that up a little bit more, then uh, that would make an awful lot of sense. And, uh, Spotify's in a great place, uh, to get there too.

Sam Sethi: 19:45

Okay. A little bit of tech stuff now. Um, a new product that, uh, you wrote about is called Detail. It's a new tool built for quickly shooting a multi-camera video, uh, which might be useful for podcasts and producing video content. I know Stream Yard recently introduced a multi-video, uh, angles. It's something I really hate though when I see that in video content is this sort of cut to you, show to me, cut to you side face on it's like very boring, uh, video. But hey, if you wanna do that, there's a new tool around called Detail,

James Cridland: 20:20

Yes, and it's at detail.co. Probably useful for you if you want to show you, you know, cooking or show you making something. So you've got two different, um, cameras. Um, or indeed if you are, uh, interviewing your mate, uh, in your, uh, in your room, uh, then you can have one camera on you and one camera on your mate. And that works, uh, quite well. But it did look quite clever. I think one of the things that I thought was quite neat is that it will automatically switch between landscape and portrait mode. Uh, so you can produce some responsive video, which, um, I think the only people I've seen producing responsive video in a really good way so far, I've been Sky News in the UK have done that amazingly. So when you're watching the Sky News Channel on your phone, then everything is formatted., uh, vertical video, um, completely automatically. So it's an entirely separate version of the channel that you can watch on the tele, so very, very clever. Anyway, um, Adobe Express podcast is the new name for Adobe's project Shasta, uh, Adobe's project. Shasta is essentially descripts, um, and it's in early preview, um, being run by Adobe. It looks pretty cool. You can get into the early preview if you pop along to the Adobe website, uh, podcast.adobe.com. Uh, and that looks quite n nice and talking of descript.

Sam Sethi: 21:44

Yeah, it looks like they're rating tens of millions of dollars, uh, at a valuation of 550 million. Um, and that's a hat tip. Thank you. From Alban Brook, I noticed that, um, I have reached out to Descript and the good news, James, is they're coming on the show November the 15th, so in a couple of weeks time to tell us all about it. But they've also, uh, done something pretty clever because the round that we are talking about, this funding round is gonna be led by open ai. And of course, open AI launched a couple of weeks back our product called Whisper, which is a transcription tool, which I understand will. Work its way into descript and, uh, so yeah, it could be a very interesting collaboration between descript and Open Air. And I'm sure Andrew Mason, who started Groupon, uh, successfully will be very happy with his new valuation of 550 million.

James Cridland: 22:38

Still in, uh, Techstar, Facebook's working on new audio compression format. This is pretty cool. It claims to offer 10 times better audio compression than mp3. And this is just a month after Google demonstrated their new speech code deck, which is called Lira version two. Now, Google's one is for, uh, voice calls and video calls and that sort of thing. Facebook's one is for music. Um, so, uh, it says that it can produce something, you know, that sounds a, a six kilobit file. That sounds as good as a 64 K MP3 file, um, which is all pretty exciting. That said Opus, um, is, uh, pretty good. It offers three times better audio compression than mp3. It's supported by every single device out there, Android phones, uh, uh, Windows, um, Google Chrome on everything. Uh, it's supported by absolutely everything. Oh, uh, except for iOS, which it's not supported by, uh, because of course it's not invented by Apple. So, uh, there you go. If only Apple were to, uh, put Opus into their devices, then we could all stop using MP3 and um, and produce something that was just as good sounding for half the bit. Right? Uh, but, uh, if Facebook does their magic, then they can do something even better.

Sam Sethi: 23:55

Well, at least we know with the alternative enclosure, which is part of the name space. Um, hopefully in the future you can include multiple formats within your same RSS feed.

James Cridland: 24:06

Yep, you can. And in fact, uh, Pod News is doing that right now. Another thing that Pod News is doing with the new, uh, podcast name space is the podcast remote item. Uh, and the idea there is that, uh, it would allow podcasters to link to other people's feeds or other people's shows, um, individual episodes in those feeds. And, um, I, uh, threw one up. Uh, there is one that, uh, contains trailers from shows that Pod News has recently featured. Um, uh, you can also get that as a normal RSS as well, um, at pod news.net/trailers. But there is a remote item version as well. Uh, that might be interesting. I, I, I think my, my jury, my, my jury, am I allowed to have a jury by myself? I don't know. Um, but anyway, I've got a jury and my jury. Um, and not entirely convinced about it because I think that, um, you can do most of what you want to do here by just linking to the audio feed, uh, but by the audio file itself rather than necessarily, um, uh, linking to a full item in an RSS feed. And that then allows me as an editor to basically say why I'm recommending this particular show. Um, and that's basically how pod news.net trailers works. But, um, yeah, it's a good thing and, uh, worthwhile, uh, giving a kick, uh, in terms of, uh, technology. So come and, uh, kick the tires for that one.

Sam Sethi: 25:37

So, just to be clear today, James, if we wanted to link to another podcast, we could put the url, uh, RSS feed and a timestamp to that point. But with this remote item tag, does it allow you to link to a chapter? Does it support chapters? So I could say, uh, link to this podcast and chapter seven, cause we use chapters and that would be a great way of doing it. Is that how the remote item feed works?

James Cridland: 26:05

That would be nice, wouldn't it? It doesn't deal with chapters, unfortunately. It only deals with individual items or indeed a whole podcast feed. And the idea is that, um, you would, uh, if you wanted to, for example, Earbuds, the Earbuds podcast, if, uh, Ariel wanted to produce a playlist of those five episodes, then she could use remote item to do that. The other option, of course, is to copy the audio and put it, and put the audio into her own podcast, um, uh, host. But that would be bad. Uh, and that's what we don't want. Um, so, um, yeah, I mean, you know, I, I still think that you can just link to the audio. And, um, and explain, uh, why you've chosen a particular piece of, of, uh, audio. But it's a tool for you to play with anyway, so, yeah.

Sam Sethi: 26:56

Hmm. I used Podcast Saver, which we talked about a few weeks ago actually, to download a bit of audio from an interview I did, and, uh, it was quite useful.

James Cridland: 27:05

Very nice, very nice.

Sam Sethi: 27:07

Hmm. Now Casto has built Dynamo. Woohoo. Uh, what is Dynamo You hear? Um, it's a free tool to help you create podcast cover art, uh, and it produces the images compatible with Apple's requirements, which is 1400 by 1400 pixels. Um, I use Headliner, um, but of course I haven't tried Dyna. I might give that a go. Have you had a look at it yet? James?

James Cridland: 27:32

Yeah, it's a very, uh, easy to use tool and the only other podcast hosting company that I am aware of that has a tool to help you create podcast cover art is anchor and people wonder why lots of people use anchor. Creating podcast cover art is, um, relatively easy for people like us, but actually, uh, for non-techy people is really quite difficult. So it's good to see this particular tool. Uh, anybody can use it. You don't have to be with, uh, Castoffs. You'll find it@dynamo.casto.com. Uh, and it's a nice, uh, tool, which, uh, seems to work quite well. Um, there's a, uh, another, uh, new tool called Audio Ship, which is a way to upload your podcast to YouTube. What I quite like about this, that is that they've got a lot of video loops that you can add to your podcast to make it look a little bit more impressive than just, um, a, uh, uh, you know, an image and a little bouncing graph. So, uh, audio ship is quite neat. Uh, it costs a tiny bit of money, uh, but apparently is well worth it. So audio ship.io is where to go, uh, for that road. Has some new microphones out too, uh, if you like streaming and gaming. But I think really only if you like streaming and gaming, uh, and there's a bunch of, uh, new o p three information isn't there as well.

Sam Sethi: 28:55

Yeah, I mean, John Spurlock, who's come up with it, uh, tweeted out it's up 943%, which is amazing. That's thanks mainly to, uh, transistor.fm. So he put out a tweet saying that, uh, for episodes that used O three transistor was at the top with 83%. But hey, James, look at you number two in the charts with Pod News. That's 7%. So well done. You, um, yeah, other hosts have been, uh, supporting o p three as well, so yeah, if we can get the numbers up for everybody, that will be amazing. What, what do you think of this one, James?

James Cridland: 29:32

I have to say, I'm looking at that and I'm thinking, yeah, I'm not so sure that, um, POD news should be quite that high. And I suspect that he's, uh, looked at the, uh, individual URLs for pod news episodes, which differ depending on what platform you are using. And I suspect that that's what he's, uh, spotted there. Interesting seeing more people using O P three, uh, it's a really good system. What John is currently working on this week is he's working on user agents. So, um, Actually being able to pull out of the information, Okay, how many downloads have you got from this particular, um, podcast app and blah, blah, blah., so hopefully relatively soon we'll see o P three expanding and having a little bit more information around the types of people who are consuming your individual shows. It's time for our favorite time of the show, which is, it is indeed BoostA Graham Corner, and, uh, Kyron has sent us 10,000 sat. Thank you Kyron. Uh, he says, Congratulations on 100 episodes. You've really helped me gain a better idea of what's going on in the podcasting world and why exactly? Podcasting 2.0 is so much better than the podcast. Industrial complex. Go podcasting. Go Podcasting. Indeed.

Sam Sethi: 30:53

We've had 10,000 sat from Adam as well. Adam Curry. Uh, I didn't delete the post. He says it was on a system. Dave Winer pulled the plug when he pulled Manila. Uh, I think you were referring to a post last week that he wrote, James.

James Cridland: 31:08

This is a post that, uh, Adam Curry essentially wrote, um, uh, 2002, 2003 time where he was, uh, talking about what became podcasting. And, um, it's a quite legendary post and doesn't exist. I did not realize that Dave Wener had essentially, um, uh, removed that particular service. So there you go. It just goes to show you have to own your own content., so thank you Adam for, uh, putting us, um, uh, to writes there. And thank you also for a further 25,000 sat saying year two of our Apple wager. This is, um, Adam trying to, um, , uh, get money from me every year that Apple hasn't launched an Android version of, uh, Apple Podcasts. I mean, they're going to do that eventually, cuz, cuz they're not stupid. But, uh, I have a feeling that, uh, I've lost another a hundred thousand sets for this year. Um, the, the benefit is of course that Adam is so generous with his value for value, um, donations, uh, to us, um, that, uh, we can easily afford that or rather I can easily afford that. So, uh, Adam, thank you, uh, very much, uh, for that. Uh, if you do get value, uh, out of this, then there is a button for that in your podcast app. It's called Boost. And if you go and press it, then you can send us, uh, an amount of SAT and that will be a lovely thing. And if you don't have a boost button, then that's cool. Uh, just go and get a better podcast. Out Fountain is probably a good one. That's the one that Adam Curry appears to be using at the moment. Uh, fountain.fm is where to get that, or you can find others@podnews.net slash new podcast apps.

Sam Sethi: 32:47

Now a quick wizard around the world, uh, Canada. Um, Katie Law from Pod the North has said there just 14 active indigenous podcasts in Canada. Seems very low, James.

James Cridland: 33:00

It does seem very low, but, um, yeah, she's put the, um, the, uh, data, uh, together. Is it Katie or Catty? I don't know actually. Catty Law, Katie Law. Anyway, um, uh, it's a great newsletter. It looks at Canadian podcasts, Pod the North, uh, is where to go, but, uh, yeah, I wonder why that figure is, uh, so low. Um, other news from the uk Audible and content is Queen, uh, working on a micro grant. Program for UK podcasters, you might get two and a half grand or even five grand as a contribution to your project. Um, there's more information on that in the show notes. Pod X Group, that, uh, strange old company, uh, based in Scandinavia somewhere, they have invested, uh, into a UK company for the first time. They've become the majority shareholders in Goldhawk productions, uh, which specializes in audio drama and fiction., they've got all kinds of stuff that they have, uh, access, uh, to, and actually they've produced an awful lot of stuff for the bbc, which, um, after five years, I think, um, they're allowed to then, uh, use for their own work, uh, as well. So products are making a clever investment there. And in France, uh, new data from Havass, Paris. Um, 32% of people in France listening to podcasts apparently. And, uh, osha, which is a French podcast platform, which is also launched in the us, um, have taken a look at some of the key findings. And they say that listeners can consider podcasts, spaces of tolerance, progress, softness, and trust. All four words that I would use to describe you. Sam

Sam Sethi: 34:44

I've never been described as softness, but thank you James. That's a very kind Now. Uh,

James Cridland: 34:50

I don't know.

Sam Sethi: 34:51

I don't know. No , um, uh, going on, uh, it were just talking about the BBC a minute ago. It seems like the, uh, bbc, which stands for Buy by Content creators, um, is losing more, um, more people. Uh, Gemma Collins, uh, podcast has moved from BBC sounds to join Acast. Um, so that's a bit sad. Um, for the bbc, I think. I've never listened to the Gemma Collins podcast, so I dunno what

James Cridland: 35:19

dreadful. You wouldn't like it, but I'm sure that your daughter would, um, uh, it's, it's for young people. Um, but uh, yes, it hasn't broadcast for the last year, so it hasn't been available for the last year and then all of a sudden has come back, but with a cast instead. Interestingly, if you just do a search for Gemma Collins Podcast in your podcast app, then you'll find two and, uh, it's not very clear, which is the Acast one and which is the BBC sounds one. Um, but, uh, still, obviously, if you only do that search in Google Podcasts, then you'll find the real one because the BBC has blocked all of its podcasts in Google podcasts because they hate you.

Sam Sethi: 35:58

Now, uh, one of my favorite podcasts I love listening to is called The Rest Is Politics. Uh, and Alistair Campbell, one of the hosts tweeted, which I thought was quite interesting just to show the numbers. He said Almost 1 million unique listeners last week and close to 6 million downloads last month. Uh, they've been number one in the UK podcast charts for a while along with news agent. Uh, they, they go between the two, but that's decent numbers. James. Nearly as

James Cridland: 36:25

it's really, really good numbers. It's another a cast show and, uh, a cast plus getting a lot of promotion in there as well. But, um, yeah, Alistair Campbell has been basically saying, you know, how much, uh, that podcast is now meaning to him. The latest episode of the podcast, which I was listening to, uh, only this, uh, morning Rory Stewart has lost his voice, so there's even more Astair Campbell on there than normal. But, uh, he's a man that knows a thing or two about UK politics. A man that knows a thing or two about, uh, radio is, uh, Tom Webster, who of course. Has worked for a bunch of radio stations in the past. Now works for Sounds profitable, of course, and he's written a really good piece, all about, um, seven warnings for the podcast industry from radio. Uh, he's actually only shared four of them this week. There'll be another five next week, um, at Sounds profitable.com, and it's well worth a read.

Sam Sethi: 37:19

Hmm. Now, uh, Spotify's anchor, uh, the forgotten child continues to lose market share in October, is now responsible for just 21.9% of all new podcast episodes, um, and it's falling. Uh, James, do you think they've just given up on anchor now that Mike Min's.

James Cridland: 37:41

Yeah, I dunno quite what they're doing in terms of, um, in terms of, uh, anchor, um, Todd Cochran reckon that they will get rid of Anchor completely and it'll just be a Spotify branded service in a year or so's time. And that may well be, uh, correct. What I think will be interesting is you, you know, market share is all very well, um, to look at, um, individual, uh, share numbers. Um, I don't know what the num, what the actual numbers. Are. So, I don't know whether they're losing market share, but actually there are more podcasts in the world and, you know, uh, and it's just that they're not, um, attracting as many of those new, uh, podcasts as possible, or whether or not they're actually losing numbers as well. So, uh, I should probably delve into those numbers a little bit deeper with, uh, John Spurlock, who, again, it's putting those numbers, uh, through, uh, together

Sam Sethi: 38:33

so, uh, one last thing here on, uh, pod land before we go, uh, to become pod news, a weekly review. Um, I jumped into an old conversation, uh, with Adam and Dave. I thought it was apt to have, uh, the guys who probably for the last couple of years have been the instigators of the name space and the, I suppose, rise in podcasting again, or at least the interesting rise in podcasting again. We're gonna put this at the end of the show, so it's quite a long interview. It's probably somewhere between 45 minutes and an hour. But Adam and Dave talk about how the name space came about. They. Also talk about who was the first, uh, app and also host to support them. Uh, more interestingly, we think I asked them why they never called it podcast three zero rather than two zero. Um, uh, and so you'll find out why it, it'll never be called that. Um, more importantly, we talked about when and how value for value will jump the calcium of adoption. So when will it come from being just a geeky thing that we all talk about with booster grams to, uh, going mainstream. Uh, and finally we talked about where podcasting is going next. Uh, the latest phase six, which we've touched on earlier today. You know, uh, remote item being one of the examples on podcast txt. Um, we talked about which of those new tags that Adam and David are most excited about and where they see podcasting heading in the next few years. So stick around for that interview at the end if you're interested.

James Cridland: 40:09

Cool. Well, I will be listening. Uh, what's happening for you this week in Pod Land, Sam?

Sam Sethi: 40:14

Well, I've struggled with Pod Ping. Uh, there's a JavaScript version and there's a Python version. Um, turns out, don't use the JavaScript version. It's flaky and it just crashes. So, uh, I had to revert back to using the Python code, which was quite entertaining.

James Cridland: 40:30

No. So you are using this, um, because you're running a super secret, uh, tool to, um, uh, grab lots of podcast information. Is that right? So you are, uh, you are a podcast directory in this particular case.

Sam Sethi: 40:43

Uh, an app that's using Pod Ping to get updates on what's happening, but also Adam Curry came up with a really interesting use case for Pod Ping as well, that any change, not just an update to an episode, but any change in rss. So if you change host or you change name like we are, or if you change description popping as a notification system could be used to alert users to that change. So, um, yeah, we've been experimenting a little bit with popping, not just as a episode update notifier in real time, but also other changes in RSS as well, which I think is quite an interesting use case.

James Cridland: 41:24

Very nice. And have you eaten food with anybody recently?

Sam Sethi: 41:28

I've been taken out for some lovely lunches. Strangely, uh, Mike, a friend of mine, took me for lunch. He's the ex-head of penguin books, so we had a lovely conversation about audio books. Nothing I can talk about here publicly right now, and uh, I also had breakfast with a mate to mine. Uh, Andy, who's the CEO of the Press Association, and we were talking about podcasting. Uh, again, very interesting conversation. Um, but uh, yeah, we also were talking about the news agent, which he's a big fan of. So, uh, hat tip to both Andy and Mike for lunch and breakfast. It's very nice of them both. And James, what's happened for you?

James Cridland: 42:06

I just, I just had a chat with Jason and Tom from the podcast show in London. Um, it was just a chat, unfortunately, no lunch, uh, was consumed. No, you know, no smoked salmon and caviar and any of that. Um, but, uh, that was very good. Um, it's all sounding very exciting for London. Lots of growth for that particular event, uh, which is next May. Uh, in, uh, Sunny Islington. I've also been spending some quite frustrating time trying to get to grips with Apple Podcasts, paid subscriptions, um, which has not been, uh, the smoothest, uh, um, thing that, uh, I was rather hoping it would be. Um, it's, it's not their fault, it's my fault, uh, because I want to continue hosting the. Pod News Daily show myself. And I don't want to give that to a third party, but I also don't want to manually upload stuff because that's the way of madness. So I'm still trying to, uh, sort myself out there. But, uh, yeah, it's been interesting learning, uh, a little bit more, uh, about that. And that's it for this week, and that's it for Pod Land completely. If you like this episode of Pod Land, don't tell anyone about it because it's not gonna be called that next week. Instead, the Pod News Weekly review will return bright and early on Friday morning.

Sam Sethi: 43:24

So you can give us feedback using email to weekly@podnews.net, or a boostgram, which we would prefer. If your podcast app doesn't support Boost, then grab a new one from pod news.net/new podcast apps.

James Cridland: 43:40

And if you'd like daily news, you should get Pod News daily. The newsletter is free@podnews.net. The podcast can be found in your podcast app too.

Sam Sethi: 43:49

Our music is from Studio Dragonfly, and of course we are thankful, uh, because we are hosted and sponsored by our wonderful sponsors, Bus Sprout.

James Cridland: 43:58

Indeed. And keep listening,

Sam Sethi: 44:00

Welcome back to Pod Land, the last ever episode. It's episode 100, and I couldn't think of two better guests to have. It's the pod father and the pod sage. It's Adam Curry and Dave Jones. Gentlemen,

Adam Curry: 44:10

how are you? Ah, doing great, Sam. Yeah, I'm a little sad about the, uh, you know, about the, the last episode. It's, uh, just kind of made me really feel, you know, like it's an end of an era. Ladies and gentlemen. Off

Dave Jones: 44:28

to the sunset, comes to a

Adam Curry: 44:29

close. With

Dave Jones: 44:30

horses in the carriage.

Sam Sethi: 44:33

Well, to put you out of your suspenders, we're glad to mention that we are changing our name to Pod News Weekly now. We couldn't kill it. We just had to rename it.

Dave Jones: 44:41

Nice. Oh, James had to take over all the branding. Okay, I see. I see how this

Adam Curry: 44:44

works. Hey, and uh, and you realize that. The, these 100 episodes don't count. Right? You have to start at one Pod News weekly. Episode one, . We are starting at one. Just say you don't to go back later and say, Hey James, it's episode 1000, but really, you know, it's 1100.

Sam Sethi: 45:05

Yeah. Now I will be dead before we reach 1000. That's the say

Adam Curry: 45:09

Bitcoin will be 10 million before it happens.

Sam Sethi: 45:12

Yeah, hoping Satoshis go up in value. Now, for those who've been living under a rock and who don't know who, these two gentlemen, martha podcast index.org is one of the areas that you will have heard them from. Obviously Adam is very famous for inventing podcasting, but I wanna just go back. When did you, Adam or Dave, whoever started the convers. Reach out to each other. I'm sure I've heard the story before, but just remind me who said what, and let's go and start this crazy idea of creating a name space. We both have

Adam Curry: 45:42

different experiences and I love hearing Dave's version because it is different from mine. It's from a different perspective. Yeah,

Dave Jones: 45:50

so Adam contacted me one day. We had known each other for about 10 years and we had done a, uh, one major project, but a bunch of different little side projects. The major project was called the Freedom Controller, and it was like a, a software that would let you archive all of your information that you looked at and read as you go across the web, and then later compiled into show notes for a podcast and things like that. And it was just this kitchen sink of things that did all kinds of stuff. And so we had just always talked every. Couple of months we would have a phone call and just chat about things and work on software and different projects. And so then Adam called me one day and said, I've got what I think is an important project. And I was like, Okay. And he said, I was listening to Accidental Tech and I was listening to those guys talk about how the Apple API had stopped returning our says feed URLs for certain shows. And they were saying what we really need is an independent index. Runs an API that's not tied to Apple, because if Podcasting's open and free, it needs to have an open and free API index. He's like, We've been doing RSS feed aggregation for a decade while we do this, you know? And so I was like, Yeah, sure. Which is what I always say. Anytime Adam calls and says, Hey, I have this idea, the answer is always yes, and you figure out if it's doable later, and it's a reasonable thing to do given Adam's track. For seeing the future. So maybe it won't work out, maybe it does, but you always say yes. So I was like, Yeah, sure, let's do it. And so then we just took a bunch of code out of the Freedom Controller aggregators, forklifted it over it. Within about a month, literally it was like six weeks from that phone call to the time we had a Pro to the time the API was live, just forklifted a bunch of code and built the beginning of the index and then over the next eight to 12 months, you know, solidified it and went it back and actually properly. Made it its own product and that kind of thing. So that's the thing. So he's like, Yeah, if we're gonna do this, we're gonna have a weekly show. It's gonna be podcasting 2.0. We're gonna give everybody a heads up on what's going on with the project, tell everybody how they can get involved. And the whole idea is that we want podcast apps that may never have existed or been able to exist because of the expense and the expertise required to run. Feed aggregation. We want to make that thing easy so that apps can just come along and just spin up and they don't have to worry about all that stuff. And so we have hopefully this new explosion of creativity in the podcast app space and you know, within. Three months after launching. That's exactly what happened. We saw all these apps crop up using the index because hey, it's free and it's solid and we can participate in it and have a voice. And that's it. That's the

Adam Curry: 48:35

history. There's one other piece to the plan. So first of all, Dave, I love you, man. I appreciate it. Uh, we didn't move any code. You moved the code Okay. I moved the

Dave Jones: 48:46

code, but I'm always gonna say we, because I'm a share by.

Adam Curry: 48:50

Well, but we're joined at the hip and that's what makes it so fun. And our relationship has literally been that for now. Well over, you know, more than 12 years, we've met each other exactly two times. In person. In person. The most recent being podcast in doubts three. Three times

Dave Jones: 49:05

Three. Yeah, three times three. But once in Austin, way back when, Free patroller and then once at Miami Bitcoin

Adam Curry: 49:11

conference. Oh, right, right, right, right. Oh yeah, of course. Yep. Three. Three. So something else happened along the way. You know, I had just been all props to Joe Rogan, kind of recertified as the pod father. He invited me on his show, kind of out of the blue, although I know a lot of people have been chilling for it for years. And you know, when Joe Rogan says, Oh, Adam Curry's the pod father, you know, Then all of a sudden, And it had to happen that way because now I had a repl amplified voice and we decided early on, let's use Mastodon as our main discussion platform. Of course we have GitHub for technical stuff, but we want, you know, people like me basically. GitHub is not my jam. You know, it's like, but a kind of a social network that we can, you know, kind of keep everything loosely together. Anyone can join by following, even if you don't have an account. And I think that was really beneficial for the entire project. But at the same time, I knew Joe was leading for Spotify and then somewhere in this period, Apple in concert, if you might recall, de platformed a number of podcasts. But they did it overnight with Facebook and with Google, and no, it was Google. It was Apple, Facebook. Amazon, I'm not sure. Spotify, Google might have done some, you know, Spotify, who the heck knows what's going on there and you know, okay, Alex Jones, I got it. Sure. You know, but, well, what happened was much worse. You know, if Apple doesn't wanna surface that fine, but all these other podcast apps also lost their content. A lot of these apps, lemme put it that way, we're all tapping into the Apple database as is overcast. You know, it's like this is a very vulnerable position. Cuz if they're messing with the feed URLs and they're taking stuff out, you know, so where do we stand? At the same time in my interest in Bitcoin had reignited. Now, Dave is a minor from way back, so he knows all the core stuff, but the lightning network kind of came about, and so I got a raspberry pie and I wasn't messing around. And then it kind of struck me like, Oh my God, this is the missing piece. Is the monetization part. You know, you're either demonetized, de platform, shadow band, whatever. And now of course you know you can get fined, I think if you even pay a podcast to possibly spread mis or disinformation. So we needed something up, Interruptable money. Or censorship resistant money. And when I kind of saw how the Lightning Network worked from my mind it was, Oh my goodness. You can do, you know, value in Winston Zeros one way and simultaneously value being sent back in Bitcoin and. And I think this is where we really shine in the whole idea with the splits. So now we can finally cut these very same app developers in on the money flow. No one ever got money from, you know, Joe Rogan advertisements when he was still hosted at Libson. You know, so now we can really ignite something and it can work for apps, for websites, for communities. You know, there's so many different ways and it's spreading. And so the term value for value, which is what the concept is, based upon 15 years of the no agenda show, doing just this only in an analog version. That kind of becomes synonymous in a way with Podcasting 2.0, but putting it all together, the name space, and the value for value transfer. You know, I, I'm more excited than I was at podcasting 1.0. That the possibilities of what can come out of.

Sam Sethi: 52:27

Yeah, I think having a micropayment system is a game changer. I've been an advocate of micropayments for years, Well, not micropayments so much, but the payment for the attention economy. So being able to reward people for their time and attention, but there was never a micropayment system, so having micro micropayments in SATs actually is for me as well, a massive game changer. But just before we move forward into all of this stuff, who was the first. I suppose major host or application developer who went, You know what, Adam and Dave, I think you're onto something. I'm gonna support you. Who was the first one to come out? The woodwork? Oh,

Dave Jones: 53:06

on the outside. Um,

Adam Curry: 53:08

well, Sovereign Feeds First.

Dave Jones: 53:11

for the Create. Yeah. For the Creation. For

Adam Curry: 53:13

Creation. And probably Cast Apod. Cast

Dave Jones: 53:15

Apod on. And then that's cell host. Yeah. So on the app side, I think definitely a hyper catcher was the first one. Mm-hmm. and uh, then my friend shortly after that, if I'm not mistaken. And then, uh, if you think about paid, like paid hosting, definitely rss.com and Buzz Sprout were first. Uh, the first two host, large hosting companies, platform hosts, I guess you might wanna call 'em, that jumped on board. And so we had this flurry of activity when the, within the first like two to three months where people saw the vision and said, Oh, okay, this is what we need. Because that, that's one thing about value, for value. And yes, we think about it in turn because Adam said from the very beginning, he's. I think it was even, even on the first phone call. Okay, we're gonna do a show every week, the Podcasting 2.0 show. We're gonna do that every week, and it's gonna be value for value. The whole thing's gonna be run on donations, you know, it's all gonna be free, and they're just gonna give us back what they think that our project and our show is worth. And when you do it that way, and it's the same whether it's the podcast hosting or the apps or anything, when you do it that way. You get the product that you want. So like donating when somebody like Bus Sprout or ours.com who've been two of our biggest supporters, when they give us money every month or however often that they give and they donate to keep us. Alive and working. They get the product that they want because they're an active participant in that. They're in the same with the apps. The apps, they come and they're, yes, they're using our index, but they're also giving us value back. Sometimes not in monetary terms. Sometimes they're giving us value back in ideas and code contributions and these things. So that whole idea of value for value, so, You give back money and that keeps the thing alive and working the way that you want it to. Other times you give back non-tangible things or your own labor and that gives you the input and the change. Uh, command that you want. So I think the whole thing being built from day one on value for value has made the thing what it is because lots of parts of the name space in the API in our show, lots of parts of this thing weren't developed by us. They came directly from the

Adam Curry: 55:31

community. Also, it removes. What I think was a bottleneck for well over a decade for, you know, anyone to move forward. You know, problem was and off discussed in many forums and Slack groups and academies and all kinds of things were created to move it forward and nothing happened. Because of course, you know, well, the hosting companies need to do it and Apple needs to do it. So we removed one barrier. Well, look, here's uh, apps that are ready for it, but also we have no commercial interest, so there's no, Well, these guys only want this tag because they have an interest in this or that. And, and by the way, Dave and I have not ever taken any money out. There's no money to take out really. Except what, what winds up on the index node, which you use for liquidity. It has made the project so honest and so. I mean, it's hard coming from where I come from. I ran a company publicly listed on nasdaq. I took it public with my partners in the mid nineties. I mean, I've been in all different business scenarios. The amount of talent, the level of talent, the level of participation and engagement is unhirable in a corporate environment. So yeah, sometimes, you know, we call it running with scissor. You fall down, you know, you cut yourself or poke out a eye, it happens. But other than that, it is an incredible way to develop something like this.

Dave Jones: 56:50

Yeah, being broke

Adam Curry: 56:51

can be fine. It's vow Poverty is the mission. Yes.

Sam Sethi: 56:56

So look, the momentum, as you say behind it has been immense. I've only been doing pod land for a couple of years now, or just under two years. And you know, I luckily jumped back into podcasting just as you guys started getting the momentum behind Podcast Index. Now, fast forward two years, here we are. We've got people like Fountain and as you said, Casta Pod and all the other great apps and people like RSS and Buzz Sprout adopting it. What's holding back? Further adoption, what's holding back the bigger consumer market of podcasters from adopting value for value and getting into it because it does feel like it's still the geek secret. You know, the early adopters are the ones who are in here now. What's gonna make us cross the chasm atom?

Adam Curry: 57:41

I think the chasm is an illusion. I don't think it's important. You need mass and you need numbers. When you're in the old paradigm of, I gotta be at the top of the list, I've gotta be number one on the charts. I've gotta have the most audience that is kind of passe right now. Let me back it up. Why do you need to have mass amount of people doing something?

Sam Sethi: 58:04

You because going back to what you said, Right, Okay. So if it's just a small group of people who are paying you in sat relevant to how much they're paying you, if you can get volume, you could not, maybe you guys, not maybe me and James, but maybe hobbyist podcasters could make a living out of it. But right now, getting 10,000 stats a week, which would be great, still isn't gonna make somebody be able to do their hobby as a full-time

Adam Curry: 58:30

thing. Right. Okay. So let's back. Even further. First of all, the majority of people who started a podcast. Are not doing it to make money. There's many podcasts and many formats and many types of communities that use podcasting. I have a window washer and this guy is into the technology of it and has his own water and, and a tank. And, you know, I listen for a bit and I like really turn me onto the window washing community. But there's podcasts for that too. This all kinds of things. Some of them with their own business model for, you know, window washing products and services, et cetera. But in general, I think podcasting 2.0 by itself. For all types of podcasters. It has a lot of stuff that is not only fun to add to your podcast, but by its very nature can be created by the community itself, uh, such as chapters, well, transcripts, you know, can be done by community, but in different, it could be checked by community. There's all kinds of things that can be contributed to by a community of listeners. When you say 10,000 sat a week, I mean, it's all about the ask. If you just say, How much value can you prescribe to what you've enjoyed in the past hour, put that into a number and send it back. You will get more than a passive stance to, Hey, you know, you can boost us. There's a very significant difference, and maybe not everybody can learn how to do that. It may be difficult for people. I think a good way in is, as Dave explained, we call it time talent, treasure, send some value back. You can, you know, maintain a website, you can do email list, whatever it is. Oh, if you have money, what kind of amount would you prescribe, you know, is an hour of watching. Uh, Or if it's two hours of watching a movie, you know, is our show worth the same amount? That's how that works. And the reason I like that it works that way is that from day one, if you're out to make money on a podcast, you can immediately get value sent back to you. And you can do it through many ways, PayPal, Cash app, whatever you want. You know, Podcasting 2.0 is certain, not the only. It's probably a good idea to try multiple ways, see what works best for you, but you really have to train yourself to ask and then you can have a community supporting you for 15 years. Dvorak and I really never cared how many people listened. Can we pay the rent with this yet? Oh no. It took a couple of years. But you get there eventually if you keep asking. And, you know, uh, value for value.info has a, a lot of background on how all of this fits together and works. So when we got pod show funded and we started a network where I discovered you can't monetize the network, I believe that we could change advertising just ever so slightly to make it fit into this wacky format of podcasting, which is inherently brand unfriendly, not safe, all kinds of issues with it. And I was wrong. So I've given up on that. I just don't think it, It's the future. It's the way it's, And even if it works for a small number of podcasts or producers or production houses that do millions of dollars, that's great, but everybody else needs to know at your fingertips. Today, you can start receiving value and you will.

Dave Jones: 1:01:39

Yeah, I think there's two parts to it. You know, you talked about the podcasting 2.0 being the geeky secret on the technology side. I think that's always going to be sort of the case. I mean, because there are technological aspects to podcasting 2.0 that just aren't, they're only appropriate for geeks. And so there's things like Pod P and API and the name space, those sorts of things. They're probably always gonna be geeky secrets. Now, you know. From that standpoint, the people at this moment in time, based on a conversation that Adam and I had with a major podcast host just last week, the chasm has already been crossed on the geek side of things, on the technical side of things, there's nothing holding that back. That's a thing that is, it's just established, and that's a thing that that exists now. And there's no more secrets or adoption barriers, you know, so to speak. On the podcasting side, you know, the podcast creator side, most of them are. It these features through their host, through their hosting company or through their platform, whether, you know, if they self host, whether it's cast Apod or WordPress or you know, any of these other sort of self-hosting, IPFS podcast, any of those things that self host or their hosting platform, they're gonna get it from the product. And so the technical stuff doesn't have to be a barrier to their entry anyway. It just shows up in their UI one day and they start using it, you know? And but then on the value for value side, I guess there's three things, not too, but on the value for value. I think the barrier there, and I've had a long running discussion with a guy who for a long time he just wasn't getting it. He just was not getting the value for value concept as far as it applied to his show. And what I've started to see, thanks to Adam's experience with value for value for so long, is that as a creator, as a podcaster, you have to be willing to give. A certain amount of control over your show. And what I mean by that is, you know, if you set out to make money and control every piece of content to where you design everything perfectly scripted and perfectly, you know the way you want it, and then you just deliver this to an audience and then expect value to come back. Sometimes that will, Sometimes it will. Sometimes it'll happen. But limiting yourself severely. If instead you integrate deeply your audience into your show so that your audience and their feedback and what they think and what they want to do becomes actually a part and a piece of your show, they feel. Because it's true. They feel like they are helping you to create the show and that it creates an immense feeling of value within them and makes them want to give you back monetary value on top of their participation. I feel, I think that that's a missing piece on the creator side.

Sam Sethi: 1:04:32

I agree and I, I think I, What I was trying to get to, I guess is when I. Hosts like Buzz Sprout and I look at rss, they're all at different stages. And I know when I listen to the podcast that you guys do, you know, you'll talk about somebody's implemented a lit and somebody's not implemented and somebody's implemented, you know, payments and somebody's not. And it all seems like. Eventually they'll all catch up with each other. But last week there was this thing called the Podcast Standards Project. I dunno if you guys read about it, which is RSS Buzz Sprout transistor, lip sync, and acast all working together to promote open standards. Again, I'm hoping that's not just a talking shop, but that's actually gonna be something that they then all get to parity. Cuz at the moment all those hosts aren't at parity. Is that something that you guys will be participating in or just, you know, hands off or just watch what they do?

Adam Curry: 1:05:28

Well let me, let me jump in for a second. First of all, I hope it is a talking. That's good having these industry players, and this is the beauty of podcasting, is that the content creation side is completely decentralized. There's no central processing system. Some have tried it, anchor tried it. I heard this morning on pod news that they're dropping. They're less and less of the new podcast created, and we know what they do create when people create it there. And if you look at it globally, man, there's a lot of hosting companies. And if you go to, you know, podcast index.org/uh, apps, you'll see how many different hosting companies there are. In a way it's just like cell phones in a way. It's not. So we, you know, GSM was the global standard and it took, gosh, it took quite a while for America to catch up there. And even in the United States, we still have interchangeable issues between Verizon and at and t, you know, so you have the Tdma versus cdma, and there's all these different standards that have different reasons for existing and different histories. To answer your question quickly and swiftly, when does this go? Big. And so to finish that up, so everyone has their own development timeline. I think all of these hosting companies kind of just almost simultaneously started to finish up their dynamically inserted ad systems or, and any kind of advertising systems. So they're looking for more to do. Some of them had more resources and could implement 2.0 features along the way. So I think you're seeing a big push now. And a group like, uh, the standards group I think doesn't really matter what you call it, but you got hosting companies sing together. I think that's a very positive thing, but the big thing that'll make a change that if the type of change you're looking for, which is what I personally don't care that much about, because. The value for value is working for over 10,000 podcasts today. And that the digital version, of course, there's more who do it in other ways, is you need just one, you know, a Spotify or an Apple or a Google or someone to add, you know, declare the name space and then they'll add something and. Then Dave and I will just retire. Then our mission is done. Right, Dave? Then we're done. That's right. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Yeah. So that, that I think is the answer to what you're looking for is like if you get a big name like that and I think it's inevitable, eventually, then, you know, that'll make a difference. Now,

Sam Sethi: 1:07:44

uh, taking a slightly different question, I reached out to a guy, Adam, you might know, called Rogers Caden, Head

Adam Curry: 1:07:53

Yeah, I do know, know Rogers.

Sam Sethi: 1:07:55

Yes. And I just looked at the RSS 2.0 website, which looks like someone wrote it in crayon back in 1990. They did? Yes. Yes.

Dave Jones: 1:08:06

Harvard did that. Yes.

Sam Sethi: 1:08:08

Great. And it hasn't been updated since. And clearly I just simply asked them the question, had he ever heard of the name space, cuz there's no reference to you guys on there or what you are doing. Mm-hmm.. And of course it was crickets came back. My question is, Dave, you and I had an email exchange last Christmas when I said some crazy stuff, which was, podcasting has all the characteristics of Web 3.0, decentralization, interoperability, monetization, and ownership. Why did you guys though, again, this my marketeer hat, why did you guys not pick. Podcasting three. Oh. I'm waiting to be slapped in the face right now. Well, why, Why did you, Why did you choose the obscure name space, which rather than a thing that most consumers can handle, which is a numeric number improvement, I

Dave Jones: 1:08:55

guess we get asked this. From the beginning, why didn't you just create RSS three, or why didn't you just use J S O? I mean, it's sort of the same type of question, and the reason is because, you know, I don't think that would've ever succeeded. I mean, it's been difficult enough to take an existing, widely used format of RSS 2.0 and modify that in ways that creates adoption. You know, if, if we had gone on a completely different route, I think the technical society would've been basically a disaster, would've just been not even a footnote in history. The 3.0 versus 2.0. I wouldn't want that even today because there's, there's so much bad blood, or no, that's not the right way to say it. There's so much of a tarnished name to the web three branding. It's like, I don't even want to get near it. I mean, it's becomes synonymous with pump and dumps and all these kinds of things, and I don't think it's fair. If you look at something like ipfs, IPFS and Lib P to P, those are legitimate. Projects that are decentralized and don't have the scamming this of pump and dump crypto coins. And so that is legitimately web three. And if you see it in action, it's beautiful to watch. So I don't think it's fair that Web three has gotten the tarnished reputation, but hey, you know, we can lay that at the feet. Like many other things will lay that at the feet of, uh, Silicon Valley venture capitalists coming in and, you know, making it gross. I think that's really sort of where branding goes. I don't want to go near web three just because. It's got that reputation now

Adam Curry: 1:10:26

going back to the RSS at Harvard, having developed podcasting with Dave Wener, that was very intentional. He's always been looking for a place where you can store a document where it lives forever. Because especially Dave Wener knows things disappear sometimes overnight and it's very confusing to people. So he parked this with Harvard for this very reason that it would sit there at Harvard and nothing would happen. It was kind of interesting cuz I was on the RSS board from its inception. I noted and what was interesting is all of a sudden I got an email from Dave saying, Those guys are gonna kick you off the board. I said, What? What are you talking? Well, you're not responding to anything. And of course they had set up some list server. Everything had gone to spam and even , even when I came back and said, Hey, you know, sorry about that. They were all kind of huffy and like, Fuck that noise. Sorry. You can descript that out. So that's where that came from. We realized through our own internal process, which was quite a process, That it really didn't make sense to market Podcast index.org, it's really unimportant in the whole game. It's mainly a place for, you know, if you've heard about it, we have a couple of links to documentation, to apps. You know, it's nothing fancy because what's so beautiful about a value for value project is. We can have very experienced people and writers like Gigi write a whole piece about value for value. We can have The apps themselves are writing about podcasting 2.0. The hosting companies are the biggest touchpoint of education for podcasters and podcast marketing has always worked in the following manner. Hey, I listen to this other podcast and they're doing this or that. You might want to consider that other podcast host. So these things work and when you as a podcast or ask people at which you guys are really good at, actually, you know, you don't say new podcast apps.com. It's like you got your own pod news.com/new podcast apps, but nobody has nude podcast podcasts. Let's see, our marketing is nude podcast apps.com. This is how we think. So when it comes. 3.0 of course Dave and I don't even have to have a conversation about it. No, we don't need 3.0 branding. We're the nude podcast apps guy, cuz we are who we are. No, but seriously, it's a core piece of the project. We are who we are and we can be exactly who we are. And even though we have all kinds of differences of opinion on the life spectrum, ideologically, et cetera. You know, one of our largest supporters is Overcast and Marco, who doesn't use the index like most other people do. So, you know, value crosses all boundaries, all kinds of weird stuff that we don't really have to deal with. So I didn't wanna even, certainly 3.0, I have the same feelings. It's been tainted, but 2.0, I'm just a DJ man. It's like, Oh, this is easy. We'll just call it 2.0 and people go, Oh, okay. It's something new. And arguably, Um, if you listen around, I think the brand podcasting 2.0, even though you can't go to a website, you don't really understand it is being used a lot. Yeah.

Dave Jones: 1:13:36

It's important that we keep the podcast index side of things really out of the main. You know, spotlight of what Podcasting 2.0 is because like you asked about the standards group from the hosting companies, we'll definitely have a voice in that and be contributors to that. And we will contribute time, talent, and treasure back to them just like they have to us over time. But we are just one voice amongst many with that thing. And that's a hosting company initiative. And the reason I'm saying that is what's important for the Podcast Index and the Podcasting 2.0 project is that we remain. What we are at our core, which is a bunch of, you know, crazy ass mad scientists trying to do weird stuff with podcasting and breaking stuff, running with scissors. Like we need to have the freedom to do crazy stuff and to experiment. We are

Adam Curry: 1:14:27

the stunt stunt men of the podcast Industrial stunt.

Dave Jones: 1:14:30

Yes. Yes. And stunt men. Yes, stunt men and women of podcasting so that then the standards body looks at all the crazy stuff that we do and says, Okay, out of these 10 things, this one thing right here, you know, pimp three, that's the one that looks cool. That's the one I think my customers can use. And then they filter that thing into what they want to be a standard for themselves. So I think it's best, you know, we are just another voice at that table. Not

Sam Sethi: 1:14:57

anything. Okay. Now, Elon Musk took over Twitter this week. The most expensive tweet in history led to his acquisition of Twitter, but Jack left an Easter egg inside of Twitter, which I've talked about on numerous occasions, which is you have. Uh, Satoshi's and Bitcoin Micro payments included directly inside of Twitter today. Mm-hmm., why haven't they turned it on in the sense of, you know, for everybody I know it's on your account, it's on multiple other accounts. Why haven't they turned it on? Why haven't they told everybody about it? Because that would be a real game changer for me.

Adam Curry: 1:15:33

Well, I have a, perhaps a alternative view of Elon Musk and. Intentions with Twitter, which is completely panning out. You know, I knew that he is very interested in creating a WeChat type of application. He has x.com, which he's had a heart on for decades. He wants to have, you know, social media, banking, order your food, order your Uber, all of the stuff in one app. Government can then also communicate that way. And if you want to do that without bots and spam, then the only way to do it is to authenticate everybody, which in Twitter world is checkmark verification. And he took a one step and I knew that was what he had to do. You have to. And so you would have to be a known entity cuz ultimately freedom of speech. Say what you want, but we know who you are. So if you say something that hits tort law or any type of slander, Then you of course can get served with paperwork. Just look at Alex Jones. Yep. It could cost you quite a bit. So he took it one step further and he turned it into a, a true KYC moment , where he's saying, No, you verify by paying. This is even more Braze than I had expected. So his plan is to ultimately have of. A payment system, maybe multiple, you know, that will be a part of Twitter. But I think what you're going to see now is just a lot of hot air, a lot of, yeah, we're putting together a board, we're doing this and that, and we'll wake up one day, a couple weeks or months or whatever down the line, and it'll be something completely different and, My thesis has always been, it will destroy Twitter because of course the fun goes out when you can't troll, let's be honest. So, you know, once you have to think about what you're saying, cuz oh man, someone, and I know how to do this inherently as a broadcaster, but if you don't, you, you can get in some real trouble. And of course that's, you know, as we now know from the, uh, from the intercept documents, the United States Government Department of Homeland Security has been an active participant in de platforming. So, I don't know how he's going to sever those ties. You know what the idea is, But anyone who wears a helper of Satan Halloween costume, , you know, has my attention.. Dave Jones: Yeah. You said Jack Dorsey left a Easter egg inside of Twitter. I mean, he took the Easter egg with him as well. I mean, he's doing his own thing with Blue Sky or whatever that thing is, and who, who knows what's gonna happen with that. I mean, it just feels like we're in real transition mode right now. It, it not just on the podcasting front or the social media front, but on, I mean, global economics. I mean, there's some real, there's some real like come to Jesus moments going on across the global landscape and it's gonna, you know, uh, there's going micropayments and d let me, let me back up. So cryptocurrency in general in some form, meaning a digital, Currency, whether it's a cbdc, whether it's Bitcoin, whether it's some other cryptocurrency, whatever. However, let's just say digital money, it is a, it is in our future. There's not, this is not a question, this is a fact. It is going to ha be in our future in some shape, form, or fashion. So the future of that is, is, is not in doubt what it's gonna be. I believe is the fight that is going on behind the scenes all over the place and there's no clear emerging winner of what that's gonna be yet. And so, you know, there's, on the Micropayment front, we see it in little glimmers of it in Twitter with the little icons like you were talking about. But that is going to pop up every. Eventually, things like Alby are just sort of dim shadows of what we're going to see in the future in some shape, form, or fashion. So we're all go. The reason I'm bringing this up is because podcasters, a lot of times for ideological reasons, don't wanna be involved in cryptocurrency, or they have, you know, political or ideological problems with it, which is fine. That's there's, that's cool. You have to realize that this is not really an option anymore. It's going to be in your future. What you should ask yourself as a, you know, as a podcaster, as a creator, as somebody who wants to get money, is what is your, what are you going to advocate for? I think people need to stop the stop thinking in terms. I wish this wouldn't happen, or I wish this would happen, and start thinking about, Oh, it's going to happen clearly. What do I want it to look like? That may be a little bit higher level, but I think that's probably, I, I ju you just, Thank you Dave. You just made me realize the fallacy when Sam, when you asked, you know, how do we get this bigger? How do we cross the chasm? Because 10,000 sat a week is not really much to go. You're kind of basing the model on, alright, people send X amount of SATs, more people more sat. While true, it is far easier for income purposes to ask because 4% of your audience will give you when asked, and that's why the Boost and the booster Graham button is are there. I mean, you can also say, Hey, I need a hundred bucks. That's this much in sat. Try it. You'll be surprised. The second thing is, Of all the internet media, you know, blogging became Twitter. Facebook is its own kind of beast unto itself. These have all become synonymous with the internet and how it works. And so it's very difficult for people to even comprehend finding an alternative because, well, it's not the most people, or it doesn't work the same, or I don't understand it, or, Oh my God, it, I have to, It took me an extra. I had to connect the wallet. Any kind of extra thing is very complicated for people and that is, you know, where the censorship is taking place is on all these platforms and all day, while people, you know, podcasts often just sound like Twitter arguments. People like, well, they took that down. That wasn't fair. Oh, you can't say this. You know, switch the playing field. And podcasting is, as far as I can tell, really the only internet medium that has consistently been. It has always operated the same way. You can always get it in the same, in the same way. So people are comfortable with it. And it's sad to say for the the new World order, but it's really kind of uncensorable. There is just no way to remove a podcast, you know, permanently because there's just too much infrastructure out there. So it's very much worth protect. And, and not so much worrying about, you know, where people's, I mean, as Dave said, you know, I remember when we first started talking about value for value, the overall sentiment was there was a lot of negative sentiment towards us. Oh, you know, it's a crypto scam. It's this because, just cuz it's ignorance, right? Just people don't know what it is. And it also kind of delivered upon a promise that I've been waiting for the dual promise. Of technology in the future, your fridge will automatically reorder your milk when it's out and it'll just show up in your refrigerator or at your doorstep. And the second one was always micropayments and micropayments. It's, it really has not existed ever with real money, which I consider Bitcoin to be real currency, not something you have to trade on your way out of the amusement park. And you know, that is a new concept. And what's interesting is the developers of the Lightning Network, a Lightning Labs, uh, early on we said, Hey, you know, there's a lot of. That don't work very well for micro payments on this Micropayment network, , and their answer was, tell people to send larger amounts, you know, so they don't even believe in the micro payments themselves. So we create, that's what the index does. You know, we created our own forwarding station to help people out with low fees so we can send these micropayments and they can get across, you know, in one place.

Dave Jones: 1:23:37

Yeah, that, that's I think, one thing that. Unnoticed over the last few weeks, and I don't think anybody has commented on it at all except perhaps me on our show, was that NPR or one of their developers contributed a, a spec to the value for value tag that uses the web monetization, uh, protocol call. Now I didn't, it, we, we will not be involved in that or promoting that in any way because I don't, I, I personally don't. Uh, I'm a little wary of its origins, which are on, which are very much tied to people who came from the Ripple cryptocurrency and or X XRP and the Ripple company. And that is, They guess there's some sketchy stuff there with the SCC investigations and stuff, so I myself

Adam Curry: 1:24:32

don't really, Hey, deal@podcastindex.org for all your comment, Dave, at podcast index.org. Yeah.

Dave Jones: 1:24:38

I'm not comfortable with getting involved in that, but the NPR is, and they said, Okay, well you know this, we wanna write a spec for this. They did. They submitted it. This is, this is prx, I guess NPR prx, like this is them submitting a proposal for a digital mon, you know, Monet. Way scheme using podcasting 2.0. So that's, that should tell you that there's not, this is not about whether or not some form of digital peer to peer payments are in our future. It, it is. I mean, it clearly is. This is not a question anymore. I'll just

Adam Curry: 1:25:15

add one more thing. Because of the value for value open nature of the project, I have caught myself several times and this is why I love, you know, and again, I've led large scale organiz. So a perfect example. Fountain. Fountain starts just going nuts on gamification with Satoshis. There's shit flying all over the place. You got counters at the top of the screen, the bottom of the screen, all this amazing creativity. And I caught myself thinking, Well, I should tell them that this is the way to do it. Oh no, this is, And I thought, Whoa, you got no say over this. This is the beauty. Let's see. Let's see what these Picassos make over. And so there's no breaks. No one can really tell anyone anything. You're your own entity in this system, so, There's so much creativity out there. Maybe it still needs to be ignited in certain people, but I think we're gonna see a lot of really interesting interfaces. And of course, we're not holding back on just podcasts. We see this working for music as well, and we're well underway towards preparing for value for value music, using the same systemology as. Podcasts on the index? Yeah,

Sam Sethi: 1:26:24

I mean, I guess the only reason why I ask you those questions is cuz I'm such, uh, a fan of what you've created with value for Valley and the way that Obi and others and Fountain have enabled Satoshi payments. I want everyone to know about it, and that's, I guess, My frustration when I talk to even people who I think are technical or within the industry, but not maybe in podcasting and you know, you can see their eyes glaze over. They have no idea what you're talking about. And I just think, Oh my God, come on. I've seen this story before it was called T P I P, then it was called a URL , then a browser. And people just didn't get it. Not never catch. No

Adam Curry: 1:27:01

one's gonna type, Type in http coal slash That's crazy.

Sam Sethi: 1:27:06

Exactly, and here we are. And I just want to fast forward. I know it's gonna work. I just wanna fast forward to when everyone's doing it right. No, you're impatient. Not

Adam Curry: 1:27:13

just within podcasting, You're impatient. Well, welcome to podcast. I'm Impatient and Development, Sam, Seth. It took a good eight years before podcasting really struck and it, you know, it, it took a certain type of content, cereal to make it reemerge. It took a certain. Environment where people had been binging on Netflix and could watch five seasons of a series in one weekend and now you had to wait and wait for next weekend's reveal. And you know, this is why true crime of course, score so well, you know that it takes time. It just takes time. But voices like yours and James's are critical in this cuz you know, you got 25, 30,000 people. Who are dedicated podcast professionals or very interested, and they're hearing all this, and that's a big content router for the for 2.0 for anything. Of course.

Sam Sethi: 1:28:09

Yeah, and you know, we hopefully bang the drum that you set the beat to, so, you know, thank you for setting that beat every week and we just bang that drum behind you. Last thing for you guys, we're into phase six of the podcast index name space. What's most exciting? You both, you know, I think

Dave Jones: 1:28:25

on, I think one of the things I'm most excited about with this one is the txt tag. We, we actually explain. Do

Sam Sethi: 1:28:32

what?

Dave Jones: 1:28:33

Explain what that is. Yeah, so the txt tag. Is something we actually fast tracked, which we rarely ever do. Think we've maybe done that once before, but never did this degree. I mean, we just opened the podcast Namespace phase six last, you know, like a month ago. And already we formalized the TXT tag. And it's loosely, and this is very geeky, but it's loosely based on the DNS concept of a TXT record. And the TXT record is a, is an unlimited, it's just a big blob. You don't, there's no structure there. It's basically just a text box, if you wanna think of it that way. It's a a way of saying, Okay, here's a tag that you put in your feed and it can have up to 4,000 characters of whatever you want. There's really no, uh, limitation there, and that means that you can allow people to develop their own feature. within the name space without having to go through the full formalization process. So in the DNS world, we've seen this crop up a lot where something like spf, which is the center policy framework, that's an anti-spam mechanism that has become critical to the email infrastructure, but it's all implemented purely through a DNS txt record, which is just a big blob of text. So the creators of that created. This scheme where they would lay out the text in a certain way and that had meaning and they said, Okay, as long as you just put your content in this DNS txt record, as long as you put it in there in this certain way, everybody will know what to do and we'll all follow the rules. Same thing here. Same thing with podcasting. As long as you put this blob of whatever you're gonna do into the podcast txt record in a certain way, everybody will be able to understand it and know how to I. And so that's it. There's really no rules around this tag except that, and the first use case of it is for feed verification. There's been obviously a big push to get email addresses out of RSS feeds for, you know, for a couple of years now, because unscrupulous or, you know, not fun. Platforms have been scraping those emails out and spamming people with 'em. So everybody wants to get their emails out of their feeds. Well, once you pull the email out of the feed, well, how do you verify it? You can't send the per the owner a link and help 'em click on it and do this kind of thing. Will you? This, the txt record allows a quick fix for that. You just flip the, you flip the scenario around and now you say, Okay, you prove to me that you own that feed. I'm gonna give you this long string of garbley. Go text, stick this in your txt record, in your txt attack in your feed, and then I will pull your feed in just a few minutes. Make sure you and I, and if I see that you put that in there, then I know that you are the owner of that feed and that you have control over it. This has been, Do Apple's been doing this for a while? By just, uh, putting that, telling you to stick it somewhere in your show notes, you know, which is very un apple-esque because they, you know, they like to do, they like to have, you know, protocols for things and make things beautiful. So just sticking a blob of goo in your show notes is not really, uh, gray. Elegant, Elegant. Yeah, it's not elegant. So now we have a way to do that. We have a place to do that. And as a side effect of having a now structured way to do that, we have this other great benefit, which allows people in the future to do what you might call name space within the name space, where you can have these other features crop up that don't need to go through the full formalization process of a tag.

Adam Curry: 1:32:13

And Adam, uh, yes, on the other end of the stack. Thank you, Dave. I know how hard you worked on this one , even just fighting over the name. The two from phase six that I'm most interested or excited about is the update to the podcast chapters because it specifically solves a problem that I have with Crowd A source chapters, which I love very much so that apps won't choke if the chapters aren't up yet. And the other one, which I think we have, John Spurlock on the in the board meeting this week or next week, is, Because now we're talking about some real interesting stuff that apps can send back to creators, and it sounds like a whole name, space, feature, toolbox within a name, space, in a way. So that's, that's the other thing that I'm very excited about.

Sam Sethi: 1:33:05

Yeah, I have to agree with you on podcast events. Yeah. John and I got together last week and had a good old chat, so hopefully he'll tell you more about what we shared. But yeah, I think that's gonna be a really big one in phase

Adam Curry: 1:33:17

six. Cool. Did you sign him to an NDA or did you ? No, I mean, I can tell you we was, Sign em to an nda.

Dave Jones: 1:33:22

Come on Dave. Yeah, no, we do friend nda. Friend nda. I'll have to say that with the txt record that owes a lot of kudos to Ted Homan from Apple for bringing that concept to the table. And, but the lineage of doing it feed verification in some other way than email address goes back further than that. That goes back to, you know, discussions that you Sam had with Alberto from rs.com. You know, a year ago. So this is just the end result of a long process. And that's how this stuff works. It gets filtered down. Lots of ideas. Everybody contributes. Yeah. And then something pops out the other end

Adam Curry: 1:33:56

feels like we need a jingle. You know, Tur, Holzman,, whenever you mention his name. We just

Sam Sethi: 1:34:03

need to jingle. Yeah. Look forward to the interview with John. Basically, just to give you a heads up, I've been looking at an old technology which uses activity pub and not because of the co commenting, but just because of the structure, it was active, uh, object. And because something I'm looking at the moment uses a lot of verbs. We. Produced something that gave an activity stream with some structure, and of course that could be seen as an event within a system, within an app that could then be sent back up into analytics. Man,

Adam Curry: 1:34:35

you've been on the hookah again, haven't you?, Dave Jones: Yeah. You start talking verbs. I can't help but think of here and user land and all that stuff. Yeah, the old verbs. Yes. Yes. I love hearing that, Sam, because that's exactly what we need. We need people to dream about what we can do with this stuff. That's the beauty.

Sam Sethi: 1:34:52

Well, thank you for letting us all dream because you know, without the two of you coming up with the crazy ideas in the first place, we'd all still be waiting for Roger's Caden head to come up with a new idea. let's be honest, that was never gonna happen. So

Adam Curry: 1:35:06

sweet revenge, and congratulations on the 100th episode of Pot Land. And.

Sam Sethi: 1:35:12

Thank you, sir. Thank you, indeed. So last thing, please tell us where we can find out more about the podcast index and also where we can find your show.

Adam Curry: 1:35:22

Uh, well that's three questions. Podcast index.org is the website. There's a, a menu there with, uh, a couple different items. If you're a developer, there's the docs there. There's a nice searchable sheet under new podcast apps.com where you can select different features Also for the host, by the way, not just for podcast apps and our show, podcasting two point. Is findable on any of the 2.0 apps. It's really the worst name in the universe for a podcast. Yeah, because your two dot oh is something that just, you can't get a domain name. So we're patently also kind of unfindable. So,

Sam Sethi: 1:35:58

uh, maybe it's time for you to change the name as well. We've just changed ours. Why didn't you change yours? Yeah,

Adam Curry: 1:36:03

follow@podcastindex.org on Twitter. And of course if you really want to join the party, even if you just wanna lurk, cuz you can, it's open for federation podcast index.social if you want an account there that there's a link on the, on the sign up page and we'll gladly let you in. It's a lot of fun. And again, you can follow it from any ma on instance.

Dave Jones: 1:36:23

Yeah. And me and Adam have been accused of being a lot of. Great marketers is not one of those things. We made a keep.

Adam Curry: 1:36:31

we're intuitive market.

Sam Sethi: 1:36:32

Yes. Well, can I just say, if you want the most fun on a Friday night, get yourself onto pod verse. Look out for the lit tags so they're live, and just listen along and just send them booster grabs. It's the best fun you can have on a Friday night. Now.

Dave Jones: 1:36:48

That's some marketing. That's some marketing. Sam, the best fun you can have on a Friday night, Sam Anthony

Adam Curry: 1:36:53

with your clothes on. That's right, Sams Seth. That's

Sam Sethi: 1:36:55

right. Perfect. How'd you know I might be naked while I'm asking?

Dave Jones: 1:36:59

Never in the robe in the bathroom.

Adam Curry: 1:37:01

Yes,. Sam Sethi: Gentlemen, thank you so forward to what we've got coming down the track in the next six, 12 months and certainly owe you to a massive beer when I catch up with you next time. Yeah, thanks Sam. Likewise, Sam. Thank you so.