James Cridland: 0:01

It's Friday, the 29th of September.

Speaker 2: 0:04

The last word in podcasting news. This is the Pod News Weekly Review with James Cridland and Sam Sethi.

James Cridland: 0:13

I'm James Cridland, the editor of Pod News in London. Sam Sethi's off this week In the chapters. Today we take a look at the new Edison podcast metrics data for the UK and we've exclusive data from it Plus. Are you listening to this on headphones? They can be bad for your hearing. We speak to the broadcaster, who's warned them for 50 years. This podcast is sponsored by Buzzsprout. Last week, 3,347 people started a podcast with Buzzsprout. Podcast hosting made easy with powerful tools, free learning materials and remarkable customer support From your daily newsletter, the Pod News Weekly Review.

James Cridland: 0:51

But first Google Podcasts is to close. The company announced the closure of its third attempt of a podcast app in emails to creators and to audiences, as well as in a blog post, but it's not closing yet. In fact, it's closing later in 2024. Whatever that's supposed to mean, the email promotes YouTube music as an alternative, but that doesn't yet have podcasts in it in many countries, especially all of Europe, and it doesn't yet support RSS feeds either, although apparently that's coming soon, they say.

James Cridland: 1:25

Now to me it might have been a little bit better if they had announced the closure once they actually had a product that's capable of replacing it, which they don't yet. So the effect will be to harm YouTube music as people perhaps find a better replacement sooner. And that better replacement, by the way, is either AntennaPod, which is a free and open app, or Pocketcasts, which is a freemium app with lots of great features, or, you know, spotify. Now to move on, the Edison podcast ranker UK was released. Joe Rogan was number one, but he was quite the outlier, with the majority of the chart being proper British content. But how is it compiled and what else does it say? I managed to get some exclusive data out of the person in charge.

Melissa Kiesche: 2:12

I'm Melissa Kishi and I'm a senior vice president at Edison Research and I do a lot of things at Edison, but the thing that is most relevant to what we're talking about today is that I lead the Edison podcast metrics subscription product both in the US and now in the UK.

James Cridland: 2:29

Yes, and the UK numbers came out over the weekend. What are you measuring in Edison podcast metrics UK and how do you compile that list?

Melissa Kiesche: 2:38

Sure. So what we are ultimately measuring is in order to do our rankers is the weekly reach among weekly podcast listeners. So each quarter we are in the field every single day. We're interviewing at least 2,000 weekly podcast listeners each quarter. So that means about 20 or 30 listeners are participating in the study each day. And in the study itself, the main question that we're asking people is to list all of the podcasts that they've listened to in the past week, and it's an open-ended question. There's no insane drop-down menu. That would be very cumbersome and certainly probably very biased if we had some sort of a drop-down menu. And the question itself it's actually a multi-step question because we really want to make sure that people are considering all of the places that they're doing their listening. We don't want them to just consider what they might have on their phone. We want them to consider apps, websites, social media, youtube all of the possibilities for where they might be consuming podcasts.

James Cridland: 3:40

So it's not just asking them what podcast you remember listening to last week. It's a bit more focused.

Melissa Kiesche: 3:46

It's a bit more focused and we know that there are still going to be some recency things here. The things that people listen to or enjoy the most they may think of first, but they're given these instructions on how to actually access the listening histories in all of the places that they do do their listening, so that that reporting is really comprehensive, and they're considering sources that they may only access occasionally. So that helps it to be pretty comprehensive and all-inclusive.

James Cridland: 4:13

So why do you do it that way and not just talking to companies like Triton, talking to companies and getting their log files and all that kind of stuff? Why do it as a survey?

Melissa Kiesche: 4:25

Well, we wanted comprehensiveness. We wanted this to be all-inclusive. We didn't want any service or show or anything to be left out. As you know, triton and PowTrack, the way they do their download listing or their download tracking, is based on downloads and it's an opt-in process. So only those companies that are interested in kind of paying to play are going to be listed in those rankers. So we wanted the ability to put everybody on the same playing field and be able to rank all shows and then eventually all networks in the same space.

James Cridland: 4:58

So you put together the list and the top 25. Was there anything that surprised you about the shows that were in there?

Melissa Kiesche: 5:08

You know, I would say after four years of putting out the US Ranker, I think I was just most pleasantly surprised to see so much UK-grown content. I think there was this, unfortunately, this American-ness in me that assumed that there would be a lot more in the top 25 that would have been coming out of the US, and of course you see Joe Rogan at the top. There's a handful of other US shows, the daily stuff you should know, impulsive, but really everything else is just like a testament to how unique British culture is and then I think, ultimately how it's going to impact the industry as a whole. I really hope that the Ranker encourages people outside the UK to actually check out some of these titles and maybe we'll start to see some of these titles up on our list as well in the US.

James Cridland: 5:55

Yeah, I was curious as to whether or not you saw any differences between the types of shows that are in the top 25 in the US versus the types of shows that are in the UK.

Melissa Kiesche: 6:05

Absolutely so. Miranda points this out to some extent. But the UK top 25, it's just a wider range of subjects than we see in the US. Even with a standalone series format, true crime is way more prevalent in the US charts. In fact I don't think there are any true crime shows in the top 25 in the UK and in the United States six of the top 25 actually fall into that category. So you have Crime Junkie, dateline, nbc Morbid Serial, my Favorite, murder, mr Bollen. Those are all true crime shows that make our top 25. And I know that there is certainly a push to bring some of these shows to a wider audience, to a more global audience. So perhaps that will change as we track things over the next couple of quarters. But for now the UK is much less into true crime than we are here in the US.

James Cridland: 6:59

Hooray, I think that's a good thing being a Brit, even though I don't always live in the UK. Well, I don't live in the UK. But I think the other thing that occurred to me when I was looking down the list is that there's an awful lot more specialism. I think in the UK list there are shows about personal finance. There are shows about science. It's a much more. I think the US top 25, there's an awful lot of entertainment in there, I think.

Melissa Kiesche: 7:33

Entertainment and just general, A lot of kind of interview over that. Each show itself is quite different. It's not, like you said, not as focused as you might see. So yeah, and certainly we are starting to see some nostalgia type of podcasts on the US list. You look at something like Office Ladies. That kind of rewatch style of podcast is starting to appear a lot in our lists.

James Cridland: 7:59

So you're not just putting this together for fun, this chart for fun, although it is great fun reading it. I guess it's part of the Edison podcast metrics product that you make available in the US. I see you making that available in the UK as well.

Melissa Kiesche: 8:15

Yes, absolutely. So I think that you know putting this in the observer this weekend it was our first chance in the UK we didn't do this in the US to really put it in the mainstream media and make podcasting more water cooler. You know something that quarterly people would actually talk about what's in the top 25. We haven't really done that in the United States. The focus has really been for our clients, for our subscribers. So, yes, we will continue to have kind of this mainstream push out of the top 25. But then our subscribers it's available now. So, in addition to being able to look at the podcast ranker or network rankers, subscribers have access to a lot of data in general on weekly podcast listeners.

James Cridland: 9:00

So data like what sort of thing?

Melissa Kiesche: 9:02

Yes. So the main question obviously is what they listened to in the past week, but we also ask a ton of demographic questions. We ask about their usage of media and technology, their podcast listening habits, what type of content they consume and a bunch of sales targeting questions like are you going to purchase a car in the next 12 months? So that allows shows that have a large enough sample to have really access to a full show profile so they can look at their show, all their listeners, and be able to look at the results of all of those questions really extensive demographic information.

Melissa Kiesche: 9:37

In the United States, subscribers are using this data. They're tracking podcast listening quarter over quarter. It's a report card that they're sharing with internal stakeholders how is podcasting doing? How are we doing, how are our competitors doing? And then, on top of that, subscribers they have the ability to ask custom questions each quarter, which is really fun to see what they come up with to ask. I mean, we've certainly seen people ask about their specific shows or platforms. They might say test the familiarity or the likability of new or current talent. But here in the UK we have 2,000 weekly podcast listeners to talk to every quarter and subscribers can really ask them anything that they want. So seeing all different utilizations of that.

James Cridland: 10:23

Yeah, that's really interesting. So what kind of customers do you have for the Edison podcast metrics product?

Melissa Kiesche: 10:30

So we have a lot of publisher-sized clients. When we first launched this in 2019, that was really the push was to provide our publishers, to provide producers, with information about the state of weekly podcast listeners, but then also what their listeners look like and what their competitors' listeners looked like. But then maybe we're coming up on a year. We started having conversations about the benefit of using this information in a sales sense, so our publishers were using this information to help sell their shows. But now we're seeing it being used on the agency side.

Melissa Kiesche: 11:05

So back in January I think you covered this in Pod News we signed an exclusive partnership with Nielsen to actually sell this to agencies, so this is starting to be in quite a few agencies' hands. They're using the rankers to really be able to look at what are the top shows among different demographics. We also have in the US and eventually in the UK, an efficiency ranker which allows you to determine your target and find the shows that are most like the target that you're looking to seek. So if I'm trying to find a show with lots of women that have children, I can set that target and then it will tell me the shows that have the greatest makeup of women with children, If I'm looking to sell diapers or some other sort of baby product.

James Cridland: 11:52

Yeah, and I guess that's another one of the big differences between the UK model and the US model in that the UK at least you know part of the podcasts that are in those top 25, the BBC don't have any advertising on them in the UK, and so I guess you know it's a different conversation there, where they will probably be interested in learning a little bit more about the types of people who they're reaching.

Melissa Kiesche: 12:16

Yes, absolutely, and that is the case for all publishers that are here. Some people in the United States are really using it just to understand how is the awareness of their network changing over time. You know, how are they doing with different demographics, with different subgroups. If they're really, if they've decided that they really want to push shows that are meeting a certain demographic, are these new shows actually getting them there? Is it changing the demographics of their network as they've added shows or, you know, brought in acquisitions and things like that? So, yeah, that's definitely been a way that people have used this.

James Cridland: 12:50

Yeah, really interesting More details on that. At EdisonResearchcom We've seen the top 25. I'm just sort of wondering whether is there anything else that this study has unveiled about podcasts listening in the UK that you might be able to tell us.

Melissa Kiesche: 13:05

Absolutely. So I'll give you a couple of little things, James. So one of the questions that we ask is what is the service that people use most often to listen to podcasts? And it's probably not a surprise that Spotify comes in at number one in the US and both the UK. So 33% of people in the UK say that they're using Spotify the most often to listen to podcasts. That's followed by YouTube at 19% and then BBC sounds at 15%. So BBC Sounds coming in at number three there Obviously we don't have BBC Sounds on our chart and then Apple coming in fourth third on the US chart and fourth on the UK chart. Here, Apple 13%, saying that they use that the most often. Then I will also give you we were looking at the top shows among women, so the top five shows among women change a little bit from the top in general. So Rogan totally drops even outside of the top 15 among women. Wow really.

Melissa Kiesche: 14:14

Yeah, so that means that his number one position in the UK it's almost entirely motivated by male listening, whereas in the United States Rogan is still number two among women. So that was pretty shocking for us to see that, to see it to drop all the way down. But the top five among women Diary of a CEO Shagged, married, annoyed, off Menu with Ed Gamble and James Acaster, which are the three that are on the main list. But what hops up among women in the fourth and fifth place is newlyweds, formerly called nearlyweds, and then number five is happy place. So certainly more female geared content in the fourth and fifth place there.

James Cridland: 14:52

That's really interesting, really interesting. And how fascinating that Rogan completely drops out of that list. That's fascinating stuff. Excellent. It's always nice to have an exclusive, so that's a great thing. When do we get the next round of data, and will you be releasing things like the publisher charts as well at some point?

Melissa Kiesche: 15:14

So we just finished feeling or actually I guess we have a few more days in the field for quarter three. It takes us about a month to process the data. While we are able to code a lot of the open-ended question algorithmically, there is still a ton, especially since it's new in the UK, that we do need to do by hand. So we need to kind of go through and determine if a show is correctly listed and then if it is properly attributed to the producer and then the publisher, the network. So we will probably release the next one I would say early November is the goal to put that out and we will definitely continue with the top 25 shows. We will probably add network at that point. At minimum we will see top genres, which will be interesting to see to how that tracks against the UK if we see true crime kind of falling down based on what we see in the ranker itself.

James Cridland: 16:08

Yeah, yeah, really, really fascinating. Well, melissa, thank you so much for your time and, as a Brit, it is wonderful. After so many failed attempts to get a proper ranker for podcasting, it's really nice to actually see one. So thank you for that and, yeah, and I'm looking forward to seeing how the figures change.

Melissa Kiesche: 16:32

Awesome. I appreciate it, James. We'll talk soon.

James Cridland: 16:34

Melissa Kishi from Edison Research. Now are you listening to this show on headphones? You might want to check the volume because they could be too loud. Here's someone who's cranked up the volume for 50 years.

Shelli Sonstein: 16:50

Shelly Sunstein and I am the cohost of the Jim Kerr rock and roll morning show on America's most listened to rock station, Q104.3.

James Cridland: 17:03

Yes, so you started in radio on WMMR in Philadelphia 50 years ago this year and now working, as you say, for Q104.3, new York's classic rock. You've been working in radio for half of its entire history. You must have seen a lot of changes.

Shelli Sonstein: 17:20

Of course, of course. But you know, I'm happy that I'm still here doing what I love, but I mean, the changes are just extraordinary over the years. Some are good, some are bad, but I think you have to adapt. Look, there's only one thing you can count on in life other than taxes, and that is change. So you have to go for the flow. There's no going backward, there's only moving forward, and that's what I do.

James Cridland: 17:50

I got my job in radio because I could edit reel to reel tape Some people say I learned.

Shelli Sonstein: 17:56

I learned on a block, you know, with the razor blade and I'm not with my hands. But, I was good with the sound.

James Cridland: 18:06

Yeah, it was. It was a great skill to have, back in the day, completely useless skill. Now Some people say that radio's best days are behind us. What do you think?

Shelli Sonstein: 18:17

Absolutely not. First of all, in an emergency, we are all you have left. Computers go down, TV signals go down. During Superstorm Sandy, which was sort of hurricane-ish here a few years back, we were a lifeline. We were the only way people could get instructions or information, and that continues to this day.

James Cridland: 18:49

Yeah, it's a big thing. I live in Australia normally I'm in London today but Australia again incredibly important in terms of bushfires, in terms of floods, you know, and everything else. So radio is a real lifeline, I think. In terms of that, I think one of the big changes for radio these days is that there are cameras in studios. Now I saw a TikTok of you explaining to Trevor what chocolate milk was. How have cameras changed what you do?

Shelli Sonstein: 19:20

You know, it just broadens our audience. I think I am fine with it. I mean, I would be fine with having our entire show on camera. My co-host doesn't agree because that would include behind the scenes, but I'm all about. You know, just pull the curtain apart. I think it would be fascinating. But not everybody agrees with me. But I am absolutely fine with the use of the camera. I'm in favor of expanding our platform any way we can, and the camera is one part of that. This is one of the beauties of broadcasting and the changes of broadcasting. We learn as we go along. You know what's working, what's not working. It's always a surprise and it's a revelation to me.

James Cridland: 20:10

Yeah, yeah, and I think there are certain things about radio. I was with Valarie Geller, who I'm sure that you know, a very big radio consultant, and there are things that work with radio that have always worked in terms of radio. You know, telling the truth, making it matter, never be boring, all that kind of stuff. But there are also lots of things that are changing in terms of radio as well. Right Now you've been sent my way because of something which is important, which is our hearing, and when we work in radio or when we work in podcasting, we're wearing headphones a lot and quite often we've got them quite loud a little bit too loud, I would guess.

Shelli Sonstein: 20:48

Right, and that's what I have hearing loss. It's not profound hearing loss, but it's hearing loss that I've noticed more over the last few years. I did not notice it on air because, as you say, james, we wear. We wear hearing aids, we're wearing headphones so we can amplify the sound. But that said, since I've been in rock radio and country radio a little bit for my entire career, when you hear a song, you, like you, crank it up and I created hearing damage.

Shelli Sonstein: 21:26

Now that is more widespread than ever because of everybody using earbuds and, just again, cranking it up. We're seeing hearing loss in kids. So you don't have any shame wearing glasses, I wear glasses, you wear glasses, you know, you just hear. Oh, when you're over 40 chances or you're gonna need glasses, you would never say, oh, I'm not going to an eye doctor because I you know that's a handicap and I'd be ashamed of that. No, it's the same thing with hearing loss. Everyone should go to a hearing doctor and get their ears tested. Parents, if you're listening, you know, test your kids. Your kids are cranking up the earbuds, you're not ashamed. Yet there is this oh, I'm old if I need hearing aids.

James Cridland: 22:26

I have to say I went to get my hearing checked last year and they said that I've got a little bit of hearing loss, but frankly not that much, and I was so delighted because I didn't want to feel old. So you're absolutely right.

Shelli Sonstein: 22:39

But it has nothing to do with being old and also we're so used to people wearing earbuds. I mean, with my Widex hearing aids, it's just a coolness factor now it's and they're not like your parents or your grandparents' hearing aids. A lot of what you can do with the hearing aids is through an app on the phone I can stream when I am FaceTiming my grandkids. I can finally hear them because I'm hearing them not through the phone but through my hearing aids, because it's paired to my phone, which is it's like a little miracle for me because instead of kind of being afraid to jump on a FaceTime call with them, now I can hear them.

James Cridland: 23:30

Well, so you noticed your hearing was going and you tried some hearing aids, and I guess there are good headphones and bad headphones. Radio presenters get very annoyed when the chief engineer at the radio station changes the headphones because headphones sound a particular way, and I guess that there are good hearing aids and bad hearing aids as well. Lother.

Shelli Sonstein: 23:50

Right now here, just like I thought you go to, and for getting your eyes tested, you get a pair of glasses. They work, but not all hearing aids are created equal, so I had tried one and whereas it was an improvement, I was really, really dissatisfied. So I was really happy with Widex because it has pure natural sound and that's something that's so important when audio is the way you make your living. I mean, there are certain sounds that I just love hearing. It sounds really strange, but if you're in like an auditorium, I remember when I was a little kid and we were in an auditorium in public school and everybody was supposed to be quiet but I would love the sound of people going through their backpacks, just those sounds that I can hear. Again, it sounds really strange, but that was one of my favorite sounds Hearing people go through like their purses and their backpacks.

Shelli Sonstein: 25:01

Just who knew that I was gonna go into radio or audio was my living. That and hearing the song of the birds when I'm out hiking with my dog, and even hearing a crunchy leaf I can hear it hit the ground. I couldn't hear that before and these are little things that everybody takes for granted because if that's just part of your life, but when it's gone, oh my God, you really really appreciate it when it's back. The other thing that was really an issue was I would absolutely dread going to restaurants with my husband and friends because in a noisy restaurant and they're pumping the music I couldn't hear. I couldn't hear the conversations. Widex actually has an external mic, so I will place that in my husband's pocket.

Shelli Sonstein: 26:03

Nobody knows it's there, but when I hear him, I don't have to just kind of look at him and smile through the meal. I mean, I would smile at him anyway.

James Cridland: 26:15

Of course, of course.

Shelli Sonstein: 26:17

I mean, imagine dreading a social situation. You don't have to. You don't have to. You can go to a hearing doctor, find out if there's hearing loss and then check out the Widex hearing aids.

James Cridland: 26:33

So what's your advice to podcasters and indeed people in radio who wear headphones a lot?

Shelli Sonstein: 26:40

Try to not crank them up like I did over the years. And you know what? I'm probably still doing it anyway and I'm thinking to myself oh, I could be, you know, exacerbating my hearing loss, but no, I remember the day.

James Cridland: 26:55

I remember the day when somebody from health and safety came to the radio station that I was working on and they insisted on putting a maximum volume level on the headphones, which was far too quiet for anybody. Nobody liked it. It was probably a good thing. So the advice is to watch the volume, I guess.

Shelli Sonstein: 27:15

Absolutely. I wish there was like a notation for this should be your max, and there isn't. Frankly, there isn't in my studio where I work. I shouldn't be doing it.

James Cridland: 27:31

Well, there you go, but it's good to hear that you found the solution with your Widex hearing aids and, shelly, I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

Shelli Sonstein: 27:42

Thank you, james, and best of luck to you.

James Cridland: 27:44

Shelly Sonstein speaking to me from her home studio, with a PR person for a certain hearing aid company listening in, but I reckon it's sound advice, regardless of the heavy plug that she managed to do. Boostergram corner, corner, corner on the Pod News Weekly Review.

James Cridland: 28:03

Yes, it's our favorite time of the week. 2,222 sats from Gene Bean. He says my two cents. A remote item playlist should show up like any other podcast in an app. He's, of course, talking to something we were talking about last week, sam and I, talking about how a remote item playlist should appear, and I would entirely agree with you, gene Bean. Thank you for the Row of Ducks. Double two, two sats Also. He sent another Row of Ducks a little bit later saying happy belated birthday, sam. He'll be delighted. And Kyren from the MereMotals podcast also sent a Row of Ducks. It seems to be the fan he says boosting for a great show, with an emoji of now, what's that? That's somebody wearing a hat and celebrating something. Anyway, kyren, thank you so much.

James Cridland: 29:01

Sam and I share everything from this show. We really appreciate your support. You can become a power supporter at weeklypodnewsnet armed with your credit card, or you can send a boost in your podcast app, like Podfans or Fountain maybe. Podfans, of course, is just gone into beta, so if you want to have a play with that, podfansfm. Sam has been busy working on that, and Sam and I have had also a busy week with Pod News Live, which was held on Wednesday, which is why this show sounds a little bit different this week. We're back to normal next week, though. This show uses clean feed. Our voice server is Sheila Dee, our music is by Studio Dragonfly, and we're hosted and sponsored by Buzzsprout. Podcast hosting made easy.