Speaker 1: 0:00

You're with the Pod News Weekly Review. I'm James Cridland. The full show is already in your feed, but this year we're adding the full interviews in this feed too, every Monday, and we're sponsored by Buzzsprout. Start podcasting, keep podcasting. Today, joining us from, I think, New York somewhere, the CEO of Audioboom, Stuart Last. Hello, Stuart, Hi.

Speaker 2: 0:19

James. Yeah, new York City. Well, brooklyn, actually just outside of the Manhattan Centre. But Brooklyn, new York, yeah.

Speaker 1: 0:25

Well, there we are. You're somebody that'll be at On Air Fest, I'm sure. It's literally two blocks from my house, so I have no excuses. There you go. You've got no excuses whatsoever. So you will have had this conversation many times over the holiday period, when somebody sidles up to you and says so I hear you work at something called Audioboom.

Speaker 2: 0:45

What is Audioboom, stuart, you know after 10 years of doing this, I hopefully all of my family know exactly what it is, but they, you know they still get confused. They still think it's radio. You know it takes a long time.

Speaker 2: 0:57

Obviously, audioboom is a podcast platform that powers podcasting for creators. So we partner with independent podcast creators and our platform, our technology platform, distributes their content, markets their content, monetizes their content, does everything that they need uh from us so that they can focus on being creative and creating great content, and we can do the other pieces for them. And we do that kind of pretty massive scale over 100 million downloads a month and 8000 different podcasters use us. And the thing that I'm most proud of is the fact that we've we've made more than $250 million for independent podcast creators over the last seven years, and that's really the. You know, the mission of our business is to support podcasters, the companies that they are creating, the 8,000 plus individuals that we work with. We are able to deliver value for them, make this more than just a hobby, allow them to really focus on podcasting, and we do that very well.

Speaker 1: 2:00

Now talking about numbers, you've published a trading update really fast off the block for the calendar year 2024. That was really fast. You must have some excellent accountants. What was in your trading update? Because it all looks pretty good news to me.

Speaker 2: 2:17

We do have excellent accountants just two of them.

Speaker 2: 2:19

We're a two-person financing. We're a very small team at Audioboom. We have around 37, 38 of us and it's a really great, great team and our finance team always close the books pretty quickly and so you'll always see from Audioboom, you know we're the first ones to be releasing data, I think the first ones to put out our results, and now you know we do that pretty quickly at the end of the year. 2024 was a fantastic year for us. You know. Good revenue growth 13% revenue growth. We delivered $73.4 million of revenue and we were profitable again.

Speaker 2: 2:54

So during the ad market recession of 2022, into 23, we went backwards. We went back into loss making territory as a business, but I'm really pleased that we've come out of that. We're profitable again and just being profitable allows us to support more and more people in the podcasting space. So really good sign, I think, for us. But when we're putting these numbers out, I think what I'm really aware of is, hopefully, the trends that we are seeing the return in health, the podcast advertising market, us also pushing through the Apple iOS change that removed a lot of our inventory last year. Hopefully those same trends are being seen by other people and other networks and companies are seeing things trending upwards as well, because I think that we are very much of opinion here that we're in the early days of podcasting still and the more that we can share in this success that the better it is for all of us yeah, indeed, total revenue for the year up 13 to 73 million.

Speaker 1: 3:53

When I was looking at acast's accounts, they seem to suggest that the us was doing fantastically for them and that europe was a bit more sluggish for them. Is that what you're seeing too, or are you seeing a different story?

Speaker 2: 4:07

I think you know the US led the way on the way down. So they were hit first by the you know global events and macroeconomics and macroeconomic headwinds. So the US was hit first and the UK was healthier for a while. The then followed into that, but the us has returned quicker than than than the uk. So I think there's just a probably a six to twelve month lag time, with uk podcasting falling behind uh us. So I'm hopeful um that you know, over the next 12 months our uk business um will will kind of trend uh in a positive direction as well, and we're already seeing that. We're seeing a lot of brand interest in the UK and commitments from our advertising partners at a higher level than last year. So I think we're starting to see those shoots of the UK market improving too?

Speaker 1: 5:01

Are the BBC still talking about putting ads in their podcasts within the UK? Has that gone away yet, or is that still a thing?

Speaker 2: 5:10

You know I haven't heard much about it for probably six or so months and I, like many other, I guess, competitor podcast networks. You know we did raise our concerns about that. I don't believe we've had much of a response on that just yet. Potentially it's gone away, but we shall keep monitoring that.

Speaker 1: 5:30

Yeah, I'm sure it's still on the burner from them. They just move quite slowly. Having worked there, you've been quite busy signing new content partnerships as well, I notice and renewing existing ones. But I did notice in your trading update that you say that you have managed to reduce your minimum guarantee obligations quite considerably, and that seems to be an industry trend, I think is it.

Speaker 2: 5:54

Yeah, you know, I think that if we rewind again back to you know, those years coming out of COVID and podcasting booming us, like six or seven other competitive networks are pitching to work with the biggest podcasters in the space, those with large audiences, those with podcasts that really kind of, you know, fit our networks well, and generally, in those negotiations through the Hollywood talent agents, you know, those opportunities to work with those big podcasters are coming through UTA, wme, caa and other talent agents. We're asked to, you know, put together a proposal for those large podcasters. One element of that proposal is usually a minimum guarantee. So, you know, that protects the talent and this is, you know, obviously a talent business and the value comes from the creator, from, from the talent. We will put together a minimum guarantee that, you know, we believe we can obviously deliver against in terms of advertising sales, but it allows the podcast creator to work with that reassurance that they will be paid for the work that they're doing.

Speaker 2: 7:02

Now, in that bubble, that that positive period for podcasting, those minimum guarantees moved up very quickly. It was very, very it was a very, very competitive, competitive time. Us, like other networks, chased into risky areas and put higher minimum guarantees in place than otherwise we would have been comfortable with. But at the time we were obviously seeing ad revenue growing all the time and we were seeing podcasting heading forward very, very quickly, very, very quickly. Now, the moment you put down those you know higher risk minimum guarantees and the ad market turns, as it did in 22. And in 23, we then have a situation where the ad revenue that we are selling for those podcasts isn't enough to cover that minimum guarantee. So then we true up that minimum guarantee and we effectively are paying out of out of pocket to fund that podcast rather than it coming from the advertising revenue.

Speaker 2: 7:58

Now you know Audioboom. I think I'm so proud of this. We paid every single minimum guarantee to create this. We honored all of our contract obligations through that time and that has helped us keep very good relationships with our podcasters, with those talent agents. And now we're coming out of the other side and we are hitting those minimum guarantees regularly. You know that's not such a problem and obviously what we are looking to do, like many others, is still provide those minimum guarantees to talent and to podcasters, but in a more equitable way, something that's safer for us but still reassures the talent that they will get paid for their work and for what they're worth, but it means that it doesn't put you know our company under any undue risk. So I think we're all working to find that more balanced level than a few years ago and that has to be good for the you know, medium term and long term of podcasting.

Speaker 1: 8:53

Now I guess I have to mention Casefile, the biggest show here in Australia, which was an audio boom show and is now no longer. Is your strategy in terms of content partnerships to ensure that you've got a wide, you know catalogue full of depth, rather than having a few Casefiles what? What's your strategy there?

Speaker 2: 9:16

yeah, no, I think that um one strategy unless around the actual uh content and the verticals that this this content sits with, our strategy is very much uh about ensuring that we don't have one uh massive show within our group that hurts us if it, if it does ever leave us right. Because, as I said, this is a kind of competitive space thing. Uh, podcasts move around. They're offered better deals from from other networks. Uh, we need to kind of ensure that nothing in there becomes uh, becomes too big and hurts us. Uh, if if it was uh ever to move. So I mean, what we do have in our network is, if you look at our top shows, we have a bunch of shows that do a fantastic job at delivering somewhere between 100 000 downloads per episode and 2 million downloads per episode. So that's the kind of the core that that we work in um, shows that that are at that kind of level. We're not talking and we're not really working with the um. You know the, the smartlaces and call her daddies those hundred million dollar plus shows.

Speaker 2: 10:18

That's not our world, but what we do is very much operate in that midfield. I think for a while we were unsure as to whether podcasting, like other creator industries, would have a strong business within the midfield. But that's become clear that that does exist and and that's where we operate. And you'll see that if you look at the triton podcast ranker or the edison podcast ranker, audio boom is, you know, fourth, sometimes fifth, but usually fourth largest publisher in those those rankers. You know there is um, iheart and serious, xm and and wandery and spotify above us, but we're there firmly in fourth place as the leader in that next size of podcast.

Speaker 1: 11:00

We've just done a number of Prediction shows and I'm wondering what your predictions are for 2025. Where will the industry go? Are we in for another? I mean, firstly, will we hit the two billion figure in the US? Finally, but also secondly, where do you see the big trends of the industry happening for this year?

Speaker 2: 11:22

I think in terms of business, you know we're getting back on the right track and you can see that in the audio boom results from last year and then what we've said today about our 2025 plans so far. So one thing that we put out in our trading update was the fact that we have $54 million of revenue kind of already on the books today through the upfront process. You know, selling large chunks of advertising to key customers in that October and November time period, upfront for the entire year. But I think not just that $54 million number is showing the health of what's coming this year, it's actually the pricing that's in there.

Speaker 2: 12:02

So Audioboom didn't shift out to fully dynamically inserted ads or faked in live reads or whatever the best way to describe that is.

Speaker 2: 12:13

We stuck with that fully baked in, woven into the fabric of the show. Live reads we were able to continue selling those at a high price point, those converted for advertisers, because it's the best way to do. It is the best way to do it and and that worked really well for us and has allowed us over this time period to work with video podcasters very, very highly. So podcasts that may only have, you know, 25% of the consumption on RSS feed and 75% of their consumption on on video on YouTube. We can monetize because we're baking those ads into the content of the show, so we can monetize the entire million audience that it has. For example, as we navigate, video being a bigger part of podcast consumption this year, as an industry, I think we're going to see more and more networks coming back to that baked in live read model because that will allow them to access video and again is proven to a big part of the advertising industry that it works and that will help this advertising market improve and get strong again that's interesting.

Speaker 1: 13:18

So much less programmatic ads, much less dai, much more baked in. You know, host red um, host red ads and things. Do you think that advertisers understand the benefit of that?

Speaker 2: 13:29

I think the uh, that there's a large group group that does.

Speaker 2: 13:33

I think that the ones that that do not ask, the ones that also need a lot of education about what podcasting is, um, we've put a whole you know, I say a whole team. It's it's it's three people. We're a small company. We put a team in place over the last year year to go out and to attract those brand awareness advertisers. We do a great job with the direct response advertisers, those ones that have built their businesses around podcasting over the last 10 years and have been responsible for supporting podcasting so well. But we've been focused on getting out into those major agency holding companies, educating them on podcasting, making sure that we are in their plans for any large campaigns they have, and that's worked really well. We now work with 12 of the top 15 major agencies in the US. So they still need a lot of educating within their world, but I think more and more they're starting to understand the benefits of podcasting within their world. But I think more and more they're starting to understand the benefits of podcasting for their brands.

Speaker 1: 14:31

Well, for more information on Audioboom, you can go to audioboomcom, which is the flashy, lovely website with lots of information on it, or, if you just want the numbers, audioboomplccom will dive you into the numbers, which is a slightly less exciting website, but doubtless much more exciting, if you like numbers.

Speaker 1: 14:48

Stuart, thank you so much for your time. It's wonderful to hear that Audioboom is doing so well. As you know, I was an advisor for your company back in 2009. No equity, sadly, but nevertheless it's nice to see your company doing incredibly well. So thank you for your time today.

Speaker 2: 15:08

Thanks for having me, James, and I appreciate the kind words. Thank.