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Podnews Weekly Review
The last word in podcasting news.
Every Friday, James Cridland and Sam Sethi review the week's top stories from Podnews; and interview some of the biggest names making the news from across the podcast industry.
Winner, "Best Podcasting Podcast", 2025 Ear Worthy Awards
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Podnews Weekly Review
AudioUK, Megan Lazovick, and YouTube
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We chat with Megan Lazovick from Edison Research, Chloe Straw from AudioUK, and Podcast Nation - and talk YouTube
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It's Friday , the 28th of March 2025 .
Speaker 2The last word in podcasting news . This is the Pod News Weekly Review with James Cridland and Sam Sethi .
Speaker 5I'm James Cridland , the editor of Pod News and I'm Sam Sethi , CEO of Truthcast .
Speaker 4One of the things that we want to do is make sure that UK podcasting is successful internationally and we're able to tap into those international markets .
Speaker 1That's Chloe Straw from Audio UK . She's on later and you know I have reporters messaging me .
Speaker 6Can you just tell me Is it going to be up ? You don't have to give me the number . Is it going to be up ?
Speaker 1Also later . Megan Lazarevic from Edison Research and Most shows should think about a video audience . The co-founders of Podnation also in the chapters . Today the PSP is alive and meeting in Chicago . A podcast movement , our YouTube adding DAI and Kai , chucks it in at YouTube . See what you did there . Sam Couldn't resist that one . This podcast is sponsored by Buzzsprout with the tool , support and community to ensure you keep podcasting , start podcasting , keep podcasting with buzzsproutcom . From your daily newsletter , the Pod News Weekly Review .
Speaker 5Now , James , let's kick this
Interview: Infinite Dial's Megan Lazovick
Speaker 5off . You did a great job with Megan Lazarevic on the Infinite Dial last week . Did you enjoy it ? Yes , it was great fun to do that .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely , it was a dream . I've been using the infinite dial for a long , long time , so it was a bit weird to be actually presenting it Nice .
Speaker 5Now , what was the big highlight for you from the results of that report ?
Speaker 1I mean , I think the big highlight was podcasting being officially mainstream now . Over 50% of Americans aged 12 plus now listen to podcasts every month , so that's pretty good news . Also , I think actually what was good is that the study is now talking to many more people . It's got a much larger survey size , and that's a good thing too . But , yes , some really good numbers coming out of that .
Speaker 5Well , also , I thought what would be good is to get Megan back on the show Now she's had time to settle the reports out and I just wanted to get her insights again to some of the findings that were in the report . You know stuff about the car , stuff about social media , things to do with , as you said , you know more Americans now using podcasting . So I started off by asking Megan how long has it been going ? The Infinite Dial .
Speaker 6It is the 27th year of the study and it was started by Edison President , larry Rosen and the team back then . And I actually gave a shout out to Pierre Bovard who is , with Cumulus , one of the sponsors of the report , but he really is the one who came to Larry way back then to talk about internet radio and they wanted to get a sense of how Americans are using it and we're so lucky that we've been able to find sponsors for the studies for 27 years so we've been able to measure that growth over time and all of the digital audio consumption and other consumer behaviors over that time .
Speaker 5You've also grown the infinite dial to be in other countries as well . Where are the infinite dials ?
Speaker 6We have many different infinite dials , not necessarily consistent every year in every country . We've done Germany , we've done South Africa , australia . That one is coming up actually . I don't know if we've done South Africa , australia . That one is coming up actually . I don't know if we've officially announced it , but you can look for that one this year . We've done New Zealand , many years ago , I think , we did Ireland , uk . So really we're trying to get it anywhere we can . Ideally we can get to a place where we're doing it every single year in every country . So we can get the same benefits that we do with the US study , where we see year after year consistency and we're able to see how habits have grown .
Speaker 5But it's also nice if we can only do the study every two years to look at consumer behaviors that way , so the study highlights critical insights into podcast consumption , online audio trends , in-car audio usage , smart speaker usage , social media behaviors and other digital media . Now , what was the big highlight ?
Speaker 6The big takeaway is up . Things are up . Digital consumption is up , but especially podcast consumption is up , and that's the thing that everyone is holding their breath for every single year . You know I have reporters messaging me . Can you just tell me , is it going to be up ? You don't have to give me the number Is it going to be up ? So that was the great news , that every year we've previously reported podcast listening . That podcast listening is now up .
Speaker 670% of Americans have listened to a podcast . That's up from previous years . And of course , the exciting bit of this year is that we didn't just measure listening , we also asked about watching podcasts , and 51% of Americans have watched a podcast . So you know what the majority of Americans are consuming podcasts through video . And then when you sort of roll up that information and look at the combined consumption figures , we have an even higher jump 73% of Americans have consumed a podcast either through audio or video . So it's pretty much up any way you look at it . If you're just looking at audio , we see increase . If you roll in those video numbers , you see even more of an increase , which is exciting for everyone in the space . They want to be able to say look how much we've grown .
Speaker 5Yeah , and one of the things in the report is that YouTube is a service used most often to listen to podcasts , which , again , given that they've only gone into the market , that was also a staggering standout for me .
Speaker 6Well , of course , podcasts have been on YouTube for many years . And actually , sam , I should tell you I know that you're looking at from the tech side I'm always looking at it from the consumer side . While I do work with the surveys and the quantitative research , I spend a lot of my time in qualitative research , where I'm talking to real people about their consumption . And you ask a real people about their consumption and you ask a real person about their consumption to podcasts , they say , oh , yeah , I've been listening to podcasts or I've been watching this podcast on YouTube for years . So the consumers don't necessarily think about the tech and the networks and all of that . They don't see it the same way that people in the industry do . So we say , oh , youtube just got in the space , or they finally just talked about it in their yearly meeting . But no , they've been in the space because that's where people are . They're heavily using YouTube for so many different parts of their life , so it makes sense that they're also consuming podcast content through YouTube .
Speaker 5So I love the fact that everything's up . But looking back over the last six , seven months , maybe even the last couple of years , we talk about a number of redundancies within the industry . We talk about the fact that advertising revenue is not going across that 2 billion threshold . How do we equate the two , between a growing audience that's listening and yet a declining industry in terms of the number of people ? So where do we balance those two parts of the conversation ?
Speaker 6I mean there's an ebb and flow in every part of business and adjustment , readjustment , and I'm sorry I can't necessarily speak to all of that again because I'm so in the consumer world . But we do know the opportunity is there and hopefully having these new numbers can help the industry prove their case , prove that people are consuming , that people are getting the messaging and that it's really valuable messaging . And one of the other studies I know we'll get to later the fandom phenomenon does talk about the amazing relationship that listeners have with podcasts and how much they value messaging through those podcasts . So the opportunity is absolutely there and it's growing because more and more people are entering the space every day . So how the industry harnesses that , I can't help you there , I'm sorry . The opportunity's there . That's what you guys have to figure out .
Speaker 5Now this is , as you said , the overall consumption in audio as well , not just purely in podcasting , but you're also looking at social media . You're looking at TV YouTube have talked about their primary platform is now going to be TV , which is for me very weird , because I've never really looked at YouTube on a TV . Again , that's what people are telling you . But social media itself where are you seeing the changes occurring there ? What's happening with people's behaviours ?
Speaker 6Well , can I tell you just related to Infinite Dial , anecdotally , we used to have lots of live conversation on Twitter . Everyone used to watch Infinite Dial and use the hashtag and talk on Twitter and social media usage has been a lot more disjointed . You know , there's a big loss to the X platform . People have moved to other platforms and for the webinar itself it was great . All of our viewers were actually chatting in the Zoom platform to each other because there wasn't one platform that we were all together . So it was nice for the webinar .
Speaker 6I enjoyed seeing everyone chatting , but it's also frustrating that there doesn't seem to be one platform that we are all on . Of course there's the meta platforms Facebook , instagram . They're really dominating the space . But Infinite Dial and , I think , the podcast world , when we're talking about more business stuff where has that landed ? I'm not necessarily posting about Infinite Dial on my Facebook , so it's very interesting . The space and the Infinite Dial does show all of the changes and where people have left , what platforms are growing .
Speaker 6And actually my favorite question from that section was about TikTok , because we were fielding the study in early January when everyone thought TikTok was going to go away and we wondered what would happen . Where would people go ? So we actually added that question in the study . If TikTok were to be banned in the US , which one social network service would you use most often ? So we got to that hypothetical answer and most people said that they would go to Instagram or Facebook . But it did vary by age . So the younger people were more likely to choose Instagram , older people were more likely to choose Facebook . But there was a good cohort across all generations that said they would use YouTube and YouTube shorts .
Speaker 5So will you be doing this same presentation at Podcast Movement in a couple of weeks time , or even next week ? Gosh , next week .
Speaker 6No Infinite Dial lives on the internet for all to see however many times they'd like , but I will be presenting the fandom phenomenon . That's a study that we did jointly with Wondery and Zensu , and I'm really excited to talk about how much people love podcasting and how much podcasting loves them back , what it gives to them in their lives , and all of the different ways that podcast enhances people's lives .
Speaker 5Well , let's talk about that report . I was really interested in the outcome of that report . You sort of touched on it that there is a parasocial relationship between the fan and the creator . Is this something that was unexpected , or do we not know this already ? And if we know now that there is that relationship , how can the creator enhance that relationship with their fan then no , it was not a surprise .
Speaker 6We already knew that there was something really special about the connection between a podcast consumer and the show . We already knew that there was this level of fandom out there , and from previous research we knew that people were more likely to trust the messaging that came from a host if they were a fan . So we already knew something was special there . But the intention of the study was to really break it apart and understand it a little bit more , to understand all of the different ways that fandom enhances a person's life . People talk about fandom in so many different ways fans of artists , fans of sports , where people have this crazy love for something , where it's not just , oh , I like it . It's like becomes a part of their personality , it becomes a way that they see themselves , and that exists in podcasts too .
Speaker 5So is it a funnel effect ? Is it that you start off with a tangential relationship you might've just heard of this podcast Then you take five or six episodes to gain a relationship with this podcast and then you move down the funnel . You now are fully engaged . So is it a state of mind that you become a fandom ? Is it a badge of honor that you reach , or is it day one you can be in the fandom ?
Speaker 6It's not necessarily a certain path for everyone . Everyone has their own path to fandom . You know , some people become a super fan of a podcast because they already love the topic or they already love the personality . Actually , you know , Amy Poehler just came out with her podcast and I've loved her forever . She's released three episodes . I'm already a fan of her podcast . So there are different paths and there are sort of and that's one of the things that we tried to do with this study sort of understanding how listeners become fans . There are kind of four different endpoints .
Speaker 6There's sort of the connection that stems from feeling like they're friends with the host . 71% of fans say that they feel like they're friends with the host . So it's connection driven . It can also be identity driven . One of the people we conducted , in addition to a survey , we also conducted in-person interviews . One of the people we spoke to said I think podcasts helped me see myself more clearly . They've helped me understand myself . So there's this underlying connection with identity with podcasts . They can also become a fan through emotional connection . Someone said podcasts help me be more productive , they help me regulate my attitude . So or they make me laugh . They 71% said . Of the fans , 71% said they are fans because podcasts help them escape real life , so there's like this emotional connection . And then , finally , there's the sense of community . That's also one of the four primary drivers for fandom 62% are fans because they help them feel like they're a part of something bigger than themselves . So I am a fan of this podcast called .
Speaker 5You were about to say Pod News Weekly , weren't you ?
Speaker 6Pod News Weekly . Yes , there you go . When I meet another Pod News Weekly fan , we go crazy because we're like oh my gosh you listen to Sam and James too , you know there is that sense .
Speaker 6It's not just you , it's bigger than you . So those are four different examples , four different touch points that get people into fandom , that sort of drive , the fandom . And it's great for podcasters to understand all of these different endpoints , to better understand you know what they're doing well , and that's great for brands , too , to sort of understand the different ways that they can connect with consumers through podcasts .
Speaker 5Now look , if everyone wants to go and find more about Edison Research , go and find more about the Infinite Dial or this fandom report , where would they go , megan ?
Speaker 6Edisonresearchcom , and because social media is so disjointed , look on every platform for us . We're there . Look for us .
Speaker 5I think it's going to you know , like you have with podcasting , wherever you get your podcast , we have to have wherever you get your social media is the next state , right ?
Speaker 6Right , yeah , find us on EdisonResearchcom and sign up for our weekly newsletter . You can find a link to sign up on EdisonResearchcom as well , because we really do make an effort to deliver never before seen data every Wednesday in your inbox .
Speaker 5Megan , thank you so much . Thank you for the Infinite Dial .
Speaker 6Of course Thanks .
Speaker 1Megan Lazarevic from Edison Research . The good news is , I think Infinite Dial Australia is currently out in the field , so we'll get some details from Australia relatively soon . Also , I gather that Infinite Dial New Zealand is coming back as well .
Speaker 5It is .
Speaker 1This year as well , which is excellent news . So I'm hoping that we get more from other countries , because it's really useful when you can start comparing things . So , yes , that's a really useful thing .
Speaker 5I also found the conversation that we had about Wondery's report about fandom quite interesting as well . So , yeah , again , I think that's something that we're going to touch on later in this show .
Speaker 1Now , indeed , and of course , Wondery's report on fandom will be at Evolutions in Chicago next week . It's not the only big study , though , is it ?
Speaker 5No , there's going to be another one as well . It's called the State of Video Podcasting in 2025 , by Coleman Insights and Amplify Media . What's this one about , james ?
Speaker 1So this is all about video podcasts , how people consume video and whether or not video is a helpful thing . Now they have released a little bit of that data a little bit early , saying that only 10% of Gen Z podcast consumers never consume video podcasts . So basically it's all about video for them , although you know about 40% of Gen Z podcast consumers only , or mostly , consume audio podcasts . So you know a bit of a mixed bag there . But it should be really interesting seeing that Obviously Coleman Insights , just like Edison Research , very large , good market research company and yes , so a ton of data there , You're going to be presenting something as well , aren't you at Evolutions ?
Speaker 1I am , indeed , I'm going to be presenting the Pod News Report Card and I've also got some data from PodTrack which will be an exclusive which I'm looking forward to breaking as well next week . I'd love to tell you what that data is . I've got it emailed to me . I haven't had the chance to actually open the email yet , right .
Speaker 5What was it entitled Exclusive do ?
Speaker 1not open until next week . I mean , I basically I contacted them a couple of months ago and I said , oh , I'm doing the report card again . If you'd like a big , big logo on the screen with some data , then do you have any interesting data ? And they do , so that's good . So , yes , so very much looking forward to breaking some of that . I went through the Pod News report card with Apple Podcasts yesterday and it seemed to go down , you know relatively well , which is nice , so I'm looking forward to sharing it with other platforms as well over the next couple of weeks .
Speaker 5Platforms as well over the next couple of weeks . Now also congratulations to friend of the show , stephen Goldstein , who is celebrating 10 years at Amplify Media , so maybe you and him can get in a bar somewhere over in the evolution to have a drink .
Speaker 1Yes , that sounds like a good plan . He's a good Professor Goldstein . Yes , he was the person who came up with the idea of Pod News , interestingly .
Speaker 5There you go . Maybe you own one or more drinks , then I think I do . Yes , exactly right
What is a play in Apple Podcasts?
Speaker 5Now . Moving on , when is a play not a play , james ? Now we know a download is not a listen , but when is a play not a play ? Basically , we saw this week that what counts as a play in analytics in Apple podcasts can be very weird . Bumper , we're talking about it every time you hit the play button in Apple podcasts . Tell me more about this .
Speaker 1Yes , this was a sort of hidden thing in the middle of an article from Bumper which shows how to combine plays . Basically , so , looking at YouTube , looking at Apple , looking at Spotify and so on and so forth and going , okay , well , how many total plays have we got ? And the quick answer is there's not an easy way to compile that at all . Apart from anything else , youtube doesn't tell us how it calculates a play it never has . So that's a weird one .
Speaker 1But hidden away in this and I spoke with Dan Meisner from Bumper about this was a little thing that said that every time you hit the play button in Apple Podcasts , it counts as a play . So that means that , for example , if you pause a podcast and then hit play again , well , that's at least two plays , maybe even three , because you've hit that play button . So my guess is that includes if you take your AirPods out and you order a coffee and then you put your AirPods back in again because that's paused it and then played it out and you order a coffee and then you put your AirPods back in again because that's paused it and then played it . Maybe it includes as you're driving , you're listening to a podcast and the podcast pauses ever so slightly to tell you to turn left . Maybe it includes that as well , who knows ?
Speaker 5Who knows ? Indeed , yeah , we don't know .
Speaker 1Yeah , who knows ? Indeed , but I did , you know ? I mean , I did go into Apple Podcasts Connect and find that this show actually has in Apple Podcasts has 32 listeners but 232 plays , which makes no sense to me at all , actually , if you think about it , because I mean , how does that really work 32 listeners but 232 plays ? Are we really saying that most people are playing it 10 times ?
Speaker 5No , I find that very strange .
Speaker 1But anyway . So yes , that was an interesting thing , I thought .
Speaker 5So remind me , why do we have different metrics for play through the main players ? You know , Apple , Spotify , YouTube ? Is it because no one's set a standard , or is it because they all want to do it differently ?
Speaker 1Well , I think it's partially . Nobody has set a standard , or at least nobody cares about a standard , even if it is actually said so . Apple hasn't signed up to any of the IAB guidelines , nor have Spotify , nor have YouTube . So IAB , you know , I mean it's a useful thing , but if the three big podcast apps don't actually use it , it's not particularly helpful . So , yeah , but you know , I mean , a play could be a useful number if it actually meant something .
Speaker 5But what I think is pretty clear with this is that it doesn't actually mean anything anyway you play doesn't really matter the number of times you hit start , stop , start , stop , start , stop wouldn't actually have any relevance . It would be actually what was the total aggregated time you played of that episode so
YouTube's new pricing
Speaker 5you could uh . Moving on , I just wanted to have this uh discussion with you . Youtube pricing um , last week we talked about youtube expanding its pricing with something called premium light . Um , it's being piloted in the US but it's extending out , weirdly , to Thailand , germany and Australia . I don't know how they randomly picked those three countries , but they did . But what's very cool about it is they're putting a YouTube ad-free price of $7.99 per month and that means you don't get music , but you do get ad-free video and podcasting . So I thought that was very cool . The thing I wanted to ask you , james , is this puts a real squeeze on Spotify , because Spotify have £5.99 for students , £11.99 for individuals and £16.99 for family . Spotify couldn't put out a £7.99 . No music service could they ?
Speaker 1No , not really . I mean because there's hardly anything on Spotify that isn't music . I mean , yes , podcasts , but your podcast is still going to have ads in them . So , no , I don't think that Spotify can offer this , and I think it's probably just a historical thing , in that YouTube obviously came from the video world but also had a music service that's part of YouTube Premium and they've all of a sudden realised , well , actually , you know what , we should stop doing the music service as well , and then we can offer a cheaper , ad-free version of YouTube . So I think that that makes a bit of sense there .
Speaker 1But , yeah , I think it will add a squeeze onto Spotify . Clearly , spotify is concerned about YouTube , because Spotify has spent the last six months or so talking about video all of the time and saying that video is the future for everything . And you can also see , you know , in certain countries and I don't know if you have it in the UK , but in certain countries Spotify also has music videos as well , which they're trying to roll out into the US , but they haven't yet managed to do that , I believe , but obviously that's an addition there as well .
Speaker 5Yeah , we talked about their price elasticity . I don't think they can go much higher in their price before it snaps and then they may have to come down to compete on this $7.99 price point . But , as we said last week , spotify is good for music and then they may have to come down to compete on this $7.99 price point . But , as we said last week , spotify is good for music but it's a poor podcast app and I don't know if I would pay just for podcasting as an app for Spotify . Yeah , no , do Now . James , you were on the media round table this week and you said something quite I thought quite really . Well , often you say things interesting . I was about to say .
Speaker 1you said something quite I thought quite really well , often you say things interesting I'm not , I was about to say , you said something interesting you said something interesting At last Once in a lifetime .
Speaker 5God , finally , no , let me try rewording that . You were on the media round table and you were talking about this topic of advertising , and what you said was but the people who would then listen to the adverts are probably not the people you want to reach .
Speaker 1Yes , yes , because I mean , if you can afford whether it's $7.99 , whether it's $11.99 , whatever that money is per month to get rid of the ads , then that probably says that you've got more disposable income . That probably says that you are therefore a bit richer than a listener that isn't doing that , and in which case , surely you are the people who the advertisers want . Surely the advertisers don't want just to be advertising to people that can't afford to get rid of the ads .
Speaker 5So yeah , send them an Aston Martin ad to somebody who can't afford 7.99 .
Speaker 1So I always find it very , I always find it very odd when companies say you can , you can get rid of the ads , because what does that say about the audience that hears the ads ?
Speaker 5So , yeah , I do think it's something just to have a think about . Moving
YouTube might do dynamic ads
Speaker 5on Now , youtube could be switching on dynamic ad insertion . James , tell me more about this .
Speaker 1Yeah , so this is according to a report by Semaphore . The report basically says that YouTube is considering making dynamic ads in videos , so it would allow a host readout to be dynamically inserted and swapped out within individual YouTube videos . So of course , you can do that in terms of audio podcasts , using OpenRSS , so that's all good , and so the theory is that you can do that in videos as well . What I would say is this sounds like a very interesting idea , but it also sounds like an idea of YouTube going ah , maybe there's some money in this dynamically switchable ad insertions and maybe we can get our 30% 40% of that , and so it's another parking their tanks on the lawn of folks who already offer that particular service .
Speaker 1So I'm not necessarily sure it's good news for the podcaster . I think , if anything , it might mean that we see the rules about host read ads being changed in the future for YouTube so that YouTube actually begin to get some money from those instead of just allowing those to be in videos anyway . So I'm not sure that it's good news for creators , but time will tell . The only thing that I would say is this is a report in Semaphore . Youtube haven't commented , and when I did a report on YouTube's getting RSS ingestion , and that's going to be amazing . Youtube took nine months to launch that product , so I would imagine this is very early on and I would imagine that YouTube is busy thinking about how it works , but we're not going to see that anytime soon .
Speaker 5No , but Simifor also suggested something about Spotify as well , james , well , I mean they say that Spotify already offers this particular product .
Speaker 1It doesn't . It doesn't have dynamic ad insertion in video and indeed when you add video to your podcast episodes on Spotify , you're getting rid of dynamic ad insertion on audio as well . So it's a bit of a mess on audio as well . So it's a bit of a mess . So you know it's not always fair to point out . You know inaccuracies in other people's , you know in other people's coverage , but in that particular case it's just worthwhile pointing out that nobody else offers this in . I mean , they said that both Spotify and Apple Podcasts offer it . Well , apple Podcasts doesn't host shows anyway . So no , and Spotify doesn't offer that either . So always interesting , just to you know . Keep an eye on that sort of thing .
Speaker 5Hmm
New video podcast host
Speaker 5. Now talking to Spotify and video , um , there was an announcement , briefly on your favorite platform , linkedin , of a flight cast announcing the beta of their video and audio hosting platform . Uh rocks , who is the CTO building the platform , said for the past year I've been quietly building a video podcast hosting platform with Steven Bartlett from Diary of a CEO . We're running a closed beta . Although Steve wants to hold off , I want to add a handful more beta testers . So if you go onto LinkedIn , find Rocks and then type I'm in , he will send you a link to apply for the beta . That doesn't mean you'll get in , by the way , but you can apply . But what's very cool is you can upload video and audio everywhere . So they're talking about Apple YouTube , but they've got Spotify video as well , and I know that they did that . We talked about this in December .
Speaker 1Are they talking about Apple ?
Speaker 5Well , I assume they will be , because if you're saying everywhere , well everywhere says Apple doesn't it ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I was curious about that because they didn't mention Apple at all on the LinkedIn post . I think the interesting thing about this is they appear to be the first podcast hosting company to be able to upload video directly into Spotify . I'm unaware of any other company . Maybe Megaphone will do that too , but I'm unaware of any other company which has access like that . You can do that from YouTube , obviously , but that I thought was really interesting . Seeing that side of it as well , it would be great if it also supported video podcasting through OpenRSS . So , yeah , I'd like to . You know , I'd like to learn a little bit more about that bit .
Speaker 5Yeah , I think when we all get on to the actual product we'll know more . Personally , I don't think it's you know , hosts are going to go . Oh my God , that's it . I think this is a wake-up call to hosts to actually get their act together and start to look at this stuff . Actually get their act together and start to look at this stuff . I mean , we had apple giving them , you know , access to apple connect and they've got apple delegated delivery . I think spotify , hopefully , will give everyone else access . I mean , steven b got it directly by asking daniel eck . I don't think , you know , everyone else can phone up daniel and ask him for direct access , but if they've built it now for flight cast , maybe they can give that same access to every other host . Um , what isn't in ?
Speaker 1there , though useful is live .
Speaker 5There's no live capability yet within what they're doing at the moment .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , there you go watch this space now
The PSP lives!
Speaker 1.
Speaker 5Um talking about hosts , talking about the community working together . Um surprise , surprise , there was a blog post from the Podcast Standards Project , james . What did they say ?
Speaker 1Yes , so the Podcast Standards Project posted their first thing since August of last year with you know what we've achieved and what comes next . And what comes next ? What we've achieved is that there are five features that the podcast , six features that the Podcasting Standards Project try and get implemented , and they say that there are 427,000 RSS feeds out there with all five of those features , which is nice , and basically saying that , pretty well , everybody supports all of those features , which is nice . Um , and basically saying that , pretty well , everybody supports all of those Um , you know . So that is um good , um and um , yeah , I think this was very much a post from Justin uh Jackson from transistor , basically um , uh , trying to um , give a different uh view than the view that we have had on this show , which is that the podcast standards project is a waste of time and it's probably already closed .
Speaker 1There's a long post here with lots of celebrations of all of those shows , but also talks about what the future might be . And is there a killer feature , much the same as Tom Webster has been talking about . Is there a killer feature for podcast apps that we can help implement and all of that kind of stuff , and just the problems that they've had in terms of moving forward .
Speaker 5Not that anyone's ever asked and no one ever will , but here's my opinion . For what it's worth , they need to put money into a pot . I think the Podcast Standards Project is a lovely group of people , all the people involved individually we know as friends . But in my opinion , don't just talk the talk , walk the walk . You need to . The website needs to be updated . You need to pull in the person taxonomy . It's sitting on a remote site somewhere , never been updated or looked at for three years . The music licenses stuff is sat with Phantom Power Media . The music category list is sat with Wavelake . Daniel has a website that's got some other stuff on it . It's all over the place . That needs to all be pulled together .
Speaker 5That's the first thing I would say . They need to invest into seed money . Now this is a controversial one , but I think they need to invest into new apps um uh . And then the more apps that support more tags , the more funding they get . The quid pro quo would be it would be an equity investment . So the apps then , if they got further funding or , in the future , sold , there would be money back into the psp pot . It's a bit like the norway um uh wealth fund you know they keep investing into it and then they get more , more money into that fund . Um , and finally , I think you know um , they the first party data we talked about earlier , giving that back to hosts from apps . I think there would be an incentive . And finally , they need to find someone who's going to be an advantage .
Speaker 5I stepped up , I stepped down . It needs to be a paid , permanent role . Somebody needs to do it . They need to be flying around to all the shows , events , talking to the agencies , talking to production companies , talking to just everyone in the ecosystem , and building those champions we talked about last week James , the people who can take on each tag and become the challenger . There's so much that can be done . I really , really , really hope that the podcast dance project is a success . It's the marketing arm of podcasting 2.0 and it needs to really work . Um , so I'll end it on one thing either go big or go home . The , the , the halfway house that it's been , is a waste of time , and so either do something or or just shut up about it and leave it alone and move on .
Speaker 1Yes , yes , I would agree with all of that . I think it's very important that we move forward with that and actually get moving , you know , with it . I mean , I think it's interesting seeing there's a big table in that posting and it's interesting seeing that , you know , just zero support from companies like Acast , libsyn , podbean Spreaker , spotify obviously , and so on and so forth . So , yeah , it'd be great if there was more people involved . Buzzsprout , our sponsor , is involved with it , as of course is Transistor , captivate , red Circle , rsscom and others in there as well . So it'd be good to see more people being involved with that , as well
RSS.com do things
Speaker 1, Now talking of RSScom , they've been active , haven't they ?
Speaker 5And what have they been doing ?
Speaker 1Yeah , they have . So they have achieved , for the first time they've achieved IAB podcast measurement guidelines , version 2.2 compliance , which is exciting . So that is one thing . Iab compliance obviously useful for you in case you are moving podcast hosting companies and you want to at least make sure that the analytics are going to be roughly equivalent . And similarly , you know they are useful numbers because quite a lot of people actually ask for IAB compliant numbers these days . You know , regardless of our issues with the IAB , you know it is useful to at least have had someone looking at your code , regardless of how useful those numbers actually are at the end of it .
Speaker 1But what also RSScom has done is they have they're a bit late to this , but they have now added automatic Apple Podcasts submission . So that feature , if you remember , was launched last month from Apple . You remember was launched last month from Apple . A bunch of people jumping in and doing it and it essentially means that if you are a brand new podcaster you can just publish to Apple with one button . It goes into rsscom's account and then you can move it over onto your own account when you're ready to sign up with Apple directly . So that's a good thing .
Speaker 5They also . I mean it's not a trade secret because it's on their website . They're adding dynamic ad insertion very shortly as well . So again something else that they are working on .
Speaker 5Yeah indeed Moving
Spotify infiltrated by porn?
Speaker 5forward . Bloomberg Ashley Carman had a very interesting report this week , which was porn on Spotify is infiltrating the platform's top podcast charts . Now , that is not a good thing . It's happened before in the past and they've taken it down . It's a game of whack-a-mole that spotify likes to play um , but what they were worried about uh , at least the the implication was was that , um , because they've added video to spotify's podcast . Now that porn companies are going , oh , oh , there's money there , let's stick some stuff up and see what we can get . But according to Spotify , our platform rules will not allow sexually explicit material and , equally , they say they would not qualify for the partner program . So I think , on that sense , there is no money for them to get . But strangely they did , according to Ashley appear in the charts .
Speaker 1Yes , and I would imagine that , yes , there may be no money for them to get directly from Spotify , but there may be opportunities and things for them to get money elsewhere . If you remember , quite a lot of people were signing up with free podcast hosts to be able just to market sex workers , and that was something that quite a lot of people were doing . So the podcast itself didn't really exist , but it was a good and free way for them to get the telephone numbers of these sex workers in various parts of the world into big search engines , like you know , YouTube and Apple podcasts . So , yeah , it is interesting .
Speaker 1I've not covered this and I'm not quite sure . It is , of course , an issue that as soon as you turn on particularly turning on video issue that as soon as you turn on particularly turning on video , then you will get adult content . But this has always been a problem with Spotify . It's always been sort of available on there , and so I was struggling a little bit to work out what the story was , other than perhaps that it's the first time that it's actually been seen in the top 10 charts .
Speaker 5I think that's it . I mean , everyone knows it's sort of lingering , but when it comes front and centre , I think that's when people go oh , that's not quite what we want . Because I don't think I mean I've never tried , but I don't think YouTube has that problem . It may well do , but I don't know . I know TikTok and I know X and other platforms do have that problem . I mean , in fact , x have just gone the other way and said , yeah , bring it all on , we'll make money from that as well . So platforms have that problem . It's just how you deal with it . I think Ashley was trying to say was the video incentive the reason that there was an increase in the amount of content from porn companies ? And the answer from Spotify seems to be no , that's not what it is .
Speaker 5Yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1Well , now let's dive around the world if we can , because we had some news from Japan . There's that song , of course , big in Japan , and podcasting is well , slightly less small in Japan . It's still not very big 17.2% of Japanese adults are listening to podcasts at least once a month . That figure is 55% in the US . Audio-only stuff in Japan really does not do very well . Historically there's something about the Japanese that means that audio and radio doesn't do particularly well . But good to see that data from Otonal and the Asahi Shimbun Company which , I have to say , apparently I'm not quite sure why I'm glad you did . So that's all fun . And , of course , happy 100th anniversary in Japan for radio , which started 100 years ago with the name of a radio station in Japan being said over and over and over again by a very shouty man , Anyway . So that's all good . That's going on in Japan .
Speaker 1In India , the Indian government is making a $1 billion investment in the local creator economy One more country doing a big investment in local creators . The previous set of companies , previous set of countries to do that have been places like Saudi Arabia and Qatar and the UAE . So interesting to see India jumping in there and going . Actually , the local creator economy is really important for the future of our industry . So , yes , you know a ton of stuff going on
Interview: Chloe Straw, Audio UK
Speaker 1there and in the UK there is an event which is going to happen . It's called the Power of Podcasting and it's on Wednesday , the 23rd of April . The event is interesting because it's designed to connect brands and agencies with the production houses and networks behind various UK podcasts . It's done by a company called Audio UK and you caught up with Chloe Straw , who's their CEO , and you asked , firstly , what Audio UK was .
Speaker 4So we've recently slightly updated our kind of mission statement and that's very much because the way that the audio industry has changed so rapidly over the last kind of 10 years . So we are an industry body and we're dedicated to advancing the audio sector . So that includes podcasts , radio , audio books , and that's by fostering innovation , supporting creators and businesses and driving sustainable growth . So we've got about 130 members , we're member funded and I think we have about 50% in London , 50% out of London , across the UK , and they include businesses like Sony , Goldhanger Audio , Always , Persephone Novel , so a huge range of amazing different businesses .
Speaker 5And when you say all these people are members , what is it that you are then giving them Guidance ? Are you giving them regulation ? What is it that Audio UK provides then ?
Speaker 4So we do a huge amount of different work and it represents the huge range of different members that we have . So within those lists we might have one person who is an audiobook producer , and they churn out audiobooks every single week in their home studio . And then obviously you have Goldhanger , who are absolutely massive and have five out of the top 10 Apple podcasts in the charts every week . So in the way that our members have a lot of different needs , we provide a lot of different services . So one of the biggest things that we concentrate on is growing the industry and growing , I guess , the amount of money coming into the industry for our members . Our members are largely independent . By that I mean we don't have the BBC as a member , we don't have Global as a member , but we do have some of the kind of biggest independent podcast companies , and so I guess what we do I split into almost two sides . There's the tangible benefits and the less tangible benefits . In terms of industry growth , one of our main things this year is we're doing a huge amount of policy work , which doesn't sound that exciting but is really , really important , and the main crux of that without turning this into a policy podcast is around getting audio podcasting recognised as a creative industry . So there's something at government level called the Creative Industries Council . It has a huge amount of input into where the money goes for the creative industries representation abroad and all different levels of development around the creative industries , and as it stands there is no seat for audio in any form on the Creative Industries Council , which seems completely mad to me . And so one of the big things that I've been working on with Hannah , who's our policy and regulation lead , is lobbying around a seat on the Creative Industries Council , and from that flows things like creative audio , tax relief for podcasting and audiobooks , more IP funding for development and IP export overseas . So I guess if you're one of our bigger members then you are able to directly feed into those conversations . I think one of the things I love about Audio UK is I keep in fairly constant contact with a lot of the founders and CEOs and MDs of our companies , who are always very open to talking to our members about various issues , and that gives them a really kind of direct avenue into those massive industry decisions . So it's very much about growing the industry .
Speaker 4Tangible benefits we provide a lot of business support . So we've just partnered with a new insurance provider on behalf of our members called Riskbox , which is great . Have a long running partnership with Minton Co , who provide as soon as you join up at any business level , you get access to 30 free legal contract templates . We have a partnership with HR companies all of those things that you might be really focused as a business on , like what's the creative , what's an idea , but all the kind of infrastructure of running a business . We also offer that to all of our members . So , and many other things training , audio production , awards , which we're going to call the apas from now on and , yeah , so many different things I don't know if you saw , but in this week's news , india has announced a one billion billion investment into its local creator economy .
Speaker 5So it sounds very similar to what you were just describing with what Audio UK would want from the UK government . So in Mumbai , neil Mohan , the CEO of YouTube , basically spoke , and then the Indian government minister has announced that they're putting in $1 billion not rupees , thankfully and the goal is to enable creators to scale their productions , upgrade tech and tap into the global markets . That sounds exactly what you were just describing for what Audio UK wants the UK government to do .
Speaker 4Yeah , I mean , that's very much what we need to happen , I think , if I have a fascinating spreadsheet which looks at kind of the different benefits that other creative industries get so film , tv , gaming , animation , theatre they get a huge amount of government support , where historically we got a bit of money into training , but that stopped in 2018 . We're actually partnering with the BBC on training . We're relaunching Audio Train , which will be great , but I feel like the government should be putting money into training for audio as well . Absolutely . We put in a proposal for the spring spending review around a fund for IP development and export .
Speaker 4So obviously , as we all know , one of the things that we want to do is make sure that UK podcasting is successful internationally and we're able to tap into those international markets as well . And that's another of our key focuses is how do we bring in more international investment ? The kind of IP fund focuses on that at a local level as well as at a global level . And also the audio tax relief is very much around . So many of our member companies use UK teams to make podcasts for the US and if we had a tax relief , you know it would just supercharge that . So , yeah , we just want to grow the industry , bring in more money . We'd love a billion dollars for the podcast .
Speaker 5Wouldn't we just yes .
Speaker 4A bit less than that at the moment , but you know anything . I'd take anything right now and then we'll work up to a billion Less than that at the moment , but you know anything , I'd take anything right now , and then we'll work up to a billion .
Speaker 5Now , this event that you've got coming up , it's on the 23rd of April . Tell me more about it .
Speaker 4So that's another real focus for us this year actually . So , aside from policy events and so on , we obviously work with a lot of the biggest and finest production businesses , production houses and networks in the UK , as I've mentioned , and that's one of the things I absolutely love about Audio UK . It's the ability to bring all these incredible businesses together , and one thing that we do is we have a podcast leaders lunch . So it's for Audio UK member companies . They don't necessarily have to be the biggest . Obviously the biggest come along , but it's the CEOs and the MDs and the co-founders of those businesses who come along , and something that I love about the industry is that they're obviously all competitors , but they're also very happy to share insights , which I love because I love partnerships . I think good things happen out of partnerships , and so we run these leaders lunches every quarter or so .
Speaker 4We obviously put on lunch , get everyone who we can together to come along and discuss opportunities and challenges within the industry , and one of the biggest challenges and opportunities that came up was around advertising in podcasting in the UK , and I mean you know this as well , if not better , than I do . You know podcasting in the UK in terms of ad spend still has a long way to go in terms of being recognised as a really good place to put your money . We all know that it's a great place . We know that the statistics are good . We know that audience engagement is good . We know that the kind of return on investment is good . The kind of structure and convincing the ad agencies and the media buyers of that still needs a lot more work and I spend a lot of time with statistics because I love data and so we know .
Speaker 4The obvious comparison is the US and the UK , both primarily English speaking countries , and I think my most recent calculation is if you look at the podcast ad spend per person in the UK it's 1.2 pounds per person and if you look at it in the US , it's $7 per person . So it's not just that the US is bigger because population size it's bigger per person , and so one of the priorities that came out of those lunches was around how do we convince advertisers that podcasting is a good place to put their money ? We know it , but there's obviously a bit of a disconnect there and obviously there's great work being done already by Acast , by Megaphone , goalhanger . Do their own outreach around that . A lot of the businesses that we work with do outreach around that , but I think it's really powerful to bring all of these businesses together and get the brands and advertisers together , to hear from such an incredible bunch of businesses At the same time as we'd come up with that .
Speaker 4I know Meera Kumar quite well , who's obviously a fantastic producer , and she brought a similar idea to me , and the beauty of Meera is , if it had been left to me because I have 40,000 things to do at any one point it probably would have stayed . Oh , that's a good idea , shouldn't we do that Whilst ? I answer all my emails and she came to me with the idea and has been really instrumental in just driving it forward , which is fantastic . We also have Martin who runs Podmasters helping out and a few other people . So , yeah , I think the main point of it is around demystifying advertising , and I think the reason we wanted to do it is because in advertising , there's so many different stakeholders , isn't there ? There's kind of the platforms , the production houses , the agencies so many different stakeholders . Isn't there ? There's kind of the platforms , the production houses , the agencies , the media buyers so many different things .
Speaker 4And I think , again , one of the strengths of Audio UK and one of the things that I love about it is the ability to hear straight from the horse's mouth .
Speaker 4So we are bringing these brands and advertisers together with the production houses and the networks who sell their content , make their content , distribute their content , and we want to talk to them about why it's so brilliant and just do a really good job of showing them why podcasting should be on their buying plan for the next year . I think it's a difficult task . We are different from the US in how we're set up . I was reading a really interesting report recently and one of the points around it is that podcasting still sits under audio in terms of ad buying , and I think , if you look at America , podcasting sort of its own branch of buying , and I think that's something that's really interesting for us to look at . For me , this is a really good first step in tackling and you know , it's not just us doing it , a lot of people are doing it but if we all tackle the need for more money to come into podcast advertising and sponsorships , I think it can only be a good thing .
Speaker 5Now , outside of talking to government and trying to change policy and running events , what else does Audio UK do ?
Speaker 4So , yeah , I must give a big shout out to the APAs , which are our annual awards ceremony . Katie messaged me beforehand and was like make sure you mention the APAs , chloe . So they're at the BFI in November . I think it's November . Actually , I don't want to give . I'll get the date wrong , which is classically me . So I was going to give you an exclusive date reveal Somewhere in November , it's around .
Speaker 5Then We'll let you know .
Speaker 4On a Wednesday towards the end . I should have briefed myself a bit better on that . So we do that , do that , as you say , we do a lot of events . So I would absolutely say please join Audio UK if you are not sure if you're eligible to be a member . We're broadening the membership more and more . As I say , our key driver is very much about growing this industry , about bringing more money into it for our businesses . We all do it for the love , but you need to earn the money to keep going as well . But we are primarily member funded and so the more people that join , the merrier . We have a join us button on our website and as part of that , everything that I've spoken about , we are doing an increasing amount of events because we find that members get a huge amount of benefit from that .
Speaker 4So we recently ran an event with PACT , who are the TV and film equivalent of us , which was a TV versus podcasting networking event . Obviously , as we all know , podcasting's not just audio , it's every single different IP extension you could possibly know about . And what was really nice about that event was we brought PAT members together with Audio UK members . They were able to network . We had a presentation from Karina at Buzz16 and from Tony Pastor at Goalhanger , and it was just a great time . For you know , people might have a podcast idea but they don't know how to exploit the TV IP extension or people in TV might want to learn more about podcasting . So we're trying to do more and more of those events that grow people's businesses , grow their opportunities .
Speaker 4I'm a huge collaborator . We are relaunching our audio train platform this year , which is very much about providing open access training to the whole podcast , audio radio , audiobook industry . It's in the early stages but will very much be around a kind of series of training videos from industry experts . So if you want to know how to story edit , you want to know how to monetize your podcast , you want to know how to market your podcast , you want to know about audio drama , there should be a video for everything . So I'm very excited about that and we also are generally at most of the events we get around quite a lot . So the uni pod fest is coming up on the 4th of april see you yeah , great .
Speaker 4And bernard uh , ashton pong , who is the vice chair and obviously founder of Unedited , he and I are doing a workshop and so , yeah , we'll see you there , and I'm really excited about the podcast show . I do love the podcast show . It's an opportunity to see all your work , friends , and it's increasingly international , which is important for us . So we've announced our first panel there , which is called 2025 to 2035 predictions for the future of podcasting .
Speaker 5Seat one , row one , I'll be there .
Speaker 4I know I mean it's a little bit tongue in cheek , but I'm looking forward to it .
Speaker 5Mystic Chloe . That's the new title .
Speaker 4I want the audience to put their predictions in , but I'm chairing that and then there's going to be Megan Bradshaw from Amazon Music , tiffany Ashtay from Acast and Jessica Cordova-Kramer from Lemonada Media . So I think incredible amount of knowledge there , and we've already made the joke that we're going to have a swear jar if anyone says video , because obviously there's so much out there , like every time on LinkedIn and so happy to read about it , but it's like is video the future of podcasting ? And we think we know that video has got a part in it now . So our promise to you on that panel is , if we say video , we have to put a pound in the jar .
Speaker 4I tell you , the drinks that evening are going to be amazing and we've also got a couple more that I'm really excited about , but I can't announce yet , so hopefully they should come and yeah , all the other things . But , as I say , we're real focused on pushing really hard to grow this industry that we love , whether that's through bringing more money in from advertising , through getting a seat on the Creative Industries Council , we're just sort of hammering away at the moment .
Speaker 5Hopefully , more people will hear this and join . More people will also ping you to come along to your event . And we will all see you , hopefully , at the London Podcast Show . Chloe Straw , thank you so much .
Speaker 4Thanks for having me there you go .
Speaker 5Chloe Straw , the lovely Chloe Straw , yes , I hope to be going along to that event on the 23rd of April . Chloe also talked about , as you heard , that the UK government isn't making the investment or even doing anything with the podcasting community really , and that's counterintuitive when you see countries like India making a $1 billion investment . And you know , when will the UK government wake up to the creative industries that podcasting provides ? We've got great companies you know Goldhanger , persephone , curr Crowd Network there's tons of them you know in the UK that are doing great , great work around the globe , like the music industry that we have . But I don't think the UK government sees any value right now .
Speaker 1Yeah , that may be the case . It may also be the case that the UK government feels that because the BBC does such a good job of working together with some of these companies that they don't necessarily need to . And of course , you know , the UK is not a rich country anymore , seemingly has no money , and I think in the budget statement that was made earlier on , Bring back the empire .
Speaker 5That's what I say . Bring back the bloody empire .
Speaker 1Sorry , sam Sethi , you would know all about the empire .
Speaker 5But strangely , if anyone knows me well , that is the last thing I'll be talking about BS .
Speaker 1Yes , indeed , but yeah , I mean , it is interesting just different countries' attitudes towards the creative industries . The UK , of course , has one of the most successful creative industries in the world in terms of music . That does very well indeed , and I guess there could be an argument to say we've already got a fantastic creative industry , they don't need any handouts from the likes of us , which may be a different conversation .
Interview: Podcast Nation
Speaker 1And finally , in Canada well , this is interesting . Both in Canada and in LA there's a women-led boutique network which is called Podcast Nation and it represents over three dozen shows apparently . We spoke to the co-founders behind PodNation . We were curious to find out a little bit more about how they were considering YouTube and how they grew and all of that . So Sean Howard , for the Pod News Weekly Review , started off by asking them what PodNation was .
Speaker 8I'm Cleo . I founded Bouge Media about 14 years ago , and so it started as a digital marketing agency and , as you know , this industry just changes so much and so quickly , and we've evolved with it and with some of the influencers that we worked with , we really got introduced to the podcast space , and then that's where the inception of our sister agency , podcast Nation , came from .
Speaker 7Yes , and I came on board back with Clio . I started actually with Booj Media early early days when Clio first founded the company and then came back about five years ago to start the Podcast Nation division of Booj , because I was just a podcast fan myself and I think I actually introduced Clio to start listening to podcasts back in the day and I oversee the operation . So I'm involved with everything from sales and production and beyond .
Sean HowardHow would you describe what your audience is now , or even as you started and where you are now ? How would you sort of talk about your audience ?
Speaker 7I think really simply , our audience is millennial women . That's kind of our sweet spot and but a millennial woman has lots of different interests that they might have . You know , listen some relationship podcast , mental health podcast , pop culture podcast . You know there's a lot of different categories to touch within that listener demographic .
Sean HowardSo you were sort of bringing that focus of representing like someone who has other channels and would expect to still run those channels versus Exactly . Like a radio approach , where you now , this is your format . We're changing your format now .
Speaker 7Yeah , and I mean part of it was that we , we I think we we thought from an early stage that brands were going to get on board for wanting to work with you know talent in a multifaceted way , like it didn't . It doesn't make sense for you know HelloFresh to work with you know these influencers on their social and not be tied into their podcast . It could only make sense for it to all be um integrated from a brand's perspective . So I think finally we're seeing the industry kind of come back to that and think about like hey , let's work with talent really strategically as opposed to in this one niche platform .
Speaker 8Yeah , we really are so happy to see that brands are finally starting to find ways to promote cross platform , because we just think it's a win-win across the board and , coming from the talent side , we understand the importance of like your brand and like to not dilute it or to be as true to that as possible , because consumers are getting smarter and smarter and they can .
Speaker 7They can tell if it's not , if it's not real , and then the other piece of it , on the on the execution side , I think . I think it took so long for the industry to start getting on board with cross-platform campaigns with talent , because it's hard to execute right like the audio agencies don't know how to execute social , the social agencies don't know how to execute podcasts . It is a very different , they're very different worlds and so everyone's trying to navigate those differences and I think we have the advantage because we come from the social side of it , the talent management side of it , that we already know . That's our , that was our bread and butter for years . We already know that side of it , so we can easily plug in and it's , you know , it's seamless across our teams .
Sean HowardI was just listening to some of your podcasts today and I started on YouTube because dear Shandy was there and I was really amazed how much presence you guys have on YouTube , because that's something that a lot of networks still are struggling to get that presence .
Speaker 7Yeah , and I can see why they're struggling , because it is a huge investment for shows to go on YouTube , but we all know that's where the industry is headed is to video . You know there's still going to be the audio listers , of course , but you also most shows should think about a video audience depending on the content exactly , but most shows should think about how to also provide content to the video consumer as well .
Speaker 8And if you can be successful at both . Again , we always say you're doubling , let's say , like your revenue , but now you have two platforms and if you're really committed at creating good content , you know , yes , it's going to take longer and it might be more work , but now you also have more opportunity to monetize it . And again , if you're looking at building your brand , you're now tapping into new audience .
Sean HowardI want to thank Nadine and Cleo again for joining me today . You can find out more about them at podcastnationco or bougiemediacom and you can find the entire article with an amazing conversation that we had at flightpathfm .
People News
Sean HowardPeople News on the Pod News Weekly Review .
Speaker 1Yes , in People News , Greg Wasserman has been hired as head of relationships at RSScom , which will be good to see that , and I think we covered the fact that he had left Cast Magic last year and apparently that was what got the two companies talking to one another , which was nice .
Speaker 5Nice , you see .
Speaker 1Yes , so that's a nice thing . Where's our commission ? Where is our commission ? Indeed , exactly , correct , correct , a bunch of things going on at ACAST . There's now a director of brand marketing , simon Franklin . That's a promotion there . Also , lots of promotions in Queensland in Australia , where ACAST has moved into the best state . Australia's top state is I believe the phrase that I should be using because that's geographically accurate whereas the best state most certainly isn't , but anyway .
Speaker 1So that is all good , but the big news is that Kai Chuck is reported to have stepped down . Mark is reported to have stepped down . He was , it says in Tube Filter , its first head of podcasts and he has moved on . We don't actually know too much more , other than there has been a statement from YouTube saying to better serve podcasters on YouTube , we're bringing the podcast partnerships team together with the news and civics partnerships teams . We're grateful to Kai Chuck for all his contributions over the years . Well , that would explain why lots of news content is appearing in the podcast page then on YouTube . So , yes , not quite sure what is going on there , but Tim Katz will continue to lead the News and Civics Partnerships team . And you might remember that , tim Katz , it was the first time that we had actually heard anything about him , and of course that would now make an awful lot of sense that those two teams are moving together . Bad idea in my idea , but still , there we are . At least they've done something , I suppose .
Speaker 5Maybe Amazon can take a leaf out of their book anyway ,
Awards and Events
Speaker 5Maybe . Now awards and events . James , what's going on in the world of awards and events ?
Speaker 1Well , there's tonnes of awards which have just been launched the Signal Awards , open for entries . Todd Cochran's People's Choice Podcast Awards , also open for entries as well . Of course , the AMBIS , the American Podcast Awards , are being given out on Monday , which will be fun , sam Sanders being honoured with the Podcast Academy's Impact Award at that event . So that is all good . And what else is going on ? Of course , evolutions is next week . Looking forward to being at Evolutions , we will doubtless be recording this show somehow , maybe from somewhere at the event . Sounds like a song Somehow somewhere .
Speaker 1Yes , somehow somewhere , it may be from the hotel room , it may be from somewhere better , right , we'll certainly find out . So all of that is good . There's South by Southwest London , which is starting relatively soon . Seen the price , yeah , how much is it Sam .
Speaker 51,300 a ticket .
Speaker 8Yep .
Speaker 5That's inclusive and open and really wanting lots of people to come to .
Speaker 1Yep , yes , that's 1,300 pounds , so that's even more in American dollary dues . Yes , so , yes , a significant amount there , so I don't think I'll be going there .
Speaker 5No , Not , unless you're a speaker
Tech Stuff
Speaker 5.
Speaker 2The Tech Stuff . Tech Stuff On the Pod News Weekly Review .
Speaker 1Yes , it's the stuff you'll find every Monday in the Pod News newsletter . Here's where Sam talks technology . What have you got ?
Speaker 5for us , sam , just very quickly . Not much . Generative audio ai company , ai acoustics um has raised five million dollars , which is really well done for them . The company aims to bring in ai powered studio quality sound . I don't really understand these things . We had a company last week that did one thing that was then licensed to wondercraft . We have another company here who does one thing . I think single function companies seem a bit odd to me yes , uh , yes , I would agree with that .
Speaker 1But , um , still , raising uh , 5.4 million us dollars in funding is not a bad thing . So , um , yes , they're based in berlin . Um , ghost . Um is interesting . Ghost is a blogging platform . Um , it is now doing things on ActivityPub , so if you want to play around with all of that , then that is definitely there . I've been reading all of the information about that for the last year or so , as they've been planning how they were going to support it . So , yeah , it's just going to be interesting to see whether or not that has much take up . I noticed that Mastodon did very , very badly in the Edison Infinite Dial , but , of course , if you talk about Mastodon , then you're not necessarily fully understanding what the Fediverse is and what ActivityPub is . There's another set of technology which hasn't really sorted out its marketing at all .
Speaker 5I think what's interesting from the Ghost release . I mean I wasn't going to particularly cover Ghost as a platform . I mean , if you like Substack , then this is the open source equivalent . But they talk about the open social web now . They don't talk about the fediverse , they don't want to talk about activity pub , they don't want to talk about those terms , and I think that's the right way to go , because for the majority of the mass market , those are too technical and I think the social web as a catch-all is a a better term . I mean , it's the same reason why I don't talk about boosts or boostergrams or zaps or Nostra or lightning networks . Nobody understands them , they're geeky words that nobody needs . I mean , as Ghost said , you know , people who use email don't need to know what SMTP is Agreed and they don't need to know that it's an activity pub protocol underlying it . Yeah , so , james , one of the other things that um I noted this week um has happened is there's been a lot of new celebrity podcast networks launching . Megan Kelly has launched her own podcast network called MK media network . Uh , we talked about Alex Cooper having her network called unwell network . Um , we've seen uh , the uh , uh . Megan Markle and Michelle Obama are launching new podcasts .
Speaker 5One thing that is missing from the conversation and this is more the techie side of it is publisher feeds . Now , oscar and Dovidas came up with the idea originally and they were brilliant to do that . They are the equivalent of pod roles , but from a podcast production side . So a podcast company can say in an RSS feed , here's a link to all the other podcasts that we produce , and then apps like TrueFounds or Fountain can actually look those up and then create a dedicated page of all of the other podcasts . But nobody seems to be publishing publisher feeds . Even Adam and Dave , with their new app , created a weird aggregated new feed of episodes rather than publisher feeds , and it's part of the spec . And yet Adam didn't even use it , and I'm totally , totally baffled by that one .
Speaker 1But nobody else seems to be using it either well , when you do a search for publisher feeds , it's very difficult to actually uh find the specification . As ever , um , there's a proposal , um which dates from October uh , 2023 . Um , but , um , it's quite hard to actually find um a publisher feed . Um , uh , you know an example of a publisher feed and it all uses the um , the GUID , um and um the GUID , uh . As we know , um adds a dependency on the podcast index , um , and without that , um , we're a little bit , we're a little bit stuck . So I'm not surprised that people aren't doing the publisher feeds . I mean , I'm not doing them either . I don't think . Maybe I am , who knows , um , but I'm not sure that I am you are because we've got yours .
Speaker 5Yeah , you are , we've got yours yeah .
Speaker 1Well , well , there you go . But , um , yeah , I mean , you know , if we don't have the tools to help people understand where they're going I mean , from my point of view , the publisher feed , just like the pod role and everything else it should also link to the RSS feed directly , not just the GUID . The GUID is useful if you happen to be using the podcast index , but if you're not using the podcast index , the GUID is next to useless because it's not really supported by very many , if any , podcast hosts . So you know , I mean again , you know I'm sorry to be the boring person saying that it's not fit for purpose , but it's not fit for purpose yet it's been . It was signed off in a hurry without actually any proper thought put down by it in terms of how the thing works .
Speaker 5So , yeah , you get what you deserve when that happens , unfortunately , Well , I hope they do get implemented correctly , because they are very , very useful .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , I can well see that , and certainly I mean Apple Podcasts , of course , has channels , which achieves a similar but not quite the same thing . So channels are sort of vaguely useful , but there's no API into the channels unless you start scraping stuff . So , yeah , so that's so , that's a thing . But , yes , agreed , it would be a useful
The Inbox
Speaker 1thing to have .
Speaker 2Boostergram , boostergram , boostergram , super , super comments , zaps , fan mail , fan mail , super chats and email . Our favorite time of the week , it's the Pod News Weekly Review Inbox .
Speaker 1Yeah , so many different ways to get in touch with us . There's fan mail by using the link in our show notes , which nobody uses . There's super comments on true fans , or boosts everywhere else , which lots of people use , or , of course , email as well . We share any money that we make between us as well . So a ton of boosts and fan mail . One for the Pod News Daily from Lyceum A row of ducks , 222 sats .
Speaker 1He says James , did you record this episode at Changi Airport in Singapore ? Do they have a podcast studio ? Have a safe flight , all the best , martin . Well , Martin , I will tell you that , yes , I did record it at Changi Airport , as you would see if you're using the podcast location tag , exactly Because I've been good , haven't I you have ? Yes , yes , top of the class , mr Cridland . Top of the class , yes , exactly . So , yes , changi Airport , absolutely . Do they have a podcast studio ? No , I was just holding microphone , uh , in the rather busy Qantas lounge , uh , so that was what was going on there , um , and I did have a safe flight , uh , so thank you , uh , for that . What else have we got here ? Silas on Linux . What does he say , sir ?
Speaker 5uh , sam got me there with the Portugal walk thing . Wow , I'm so pissed off and impressed and amazed at the same time . Thank you very much , silas . Don't be impressed . Um , it's , it's something that you know it's going to take a while to do , but , yes , I'm going to do the Camino way , which is a lovely walk , so yeah , Silas was using Fountain Bruce the Ugly Quacking Duck 2,222 sets and so a nice row of ducks .
Speaker 1Using Podcast Guru and he says if I add 2.0 and 3.0 together , I should get 5.0 . If I divide that by two , I should get 2.5 . All the while I still get to podcast , I do enjoy the progress that's been made . I understand none of that .
Speaker 5I do . So I actually would say , Bruce , you're very right . I would say we've gone past 2.0 . We're not quite at 3.0 , so 2.5 is probably where we are .
Speaker 1Good , I'm pleased that we're not at 3.0 . It's a bunch of charlatans at 3.0 .
Speaker 4No moving on . Nobody wants to go anywhere close to there , by the way .
Speaker 1Bruce did finish a message last time with , I think , 73 . And I think I said , gosh , is he 73 ? No , that's not what that means . Apparently , 73 or something is ham radio for okay , roger and Out , or something like that . So , yes , somebody quietly told me , radio futurologist . Yes , yes , somebody quietly told me .
Speaker 1So there we are , dave the pod sage using fountain 48,000 sats , nice , yay , you earned one of these . Yes , so thank you so much , he says . If we ever said that we named the show Podcasting 2.0 to piss off Dave Weiner , we were just joking . Well , that's what Adam Curry said very clearly , but anyway , he said that didn't happen . I think Adam just came up with the name because it sounded fun and future oriented , by which I'm sure he means orientated . Thank you , dave , for that . Thank you for your generous boost as well and for all that you do . Seth 358 sats here . I adore Matt Medeiros . He's such a great steward and educator in the podcasting space . He is indeed , indeed , yes , so that's a nice thing . And then , finally , lots from silas on linux . Um , so what ? What is he sent here ? He sent love listening to youtube and spotify weekly review . Yes , youtube and spotify weekly review . Maybe that's what we should change it .
Speaker 1Um , he then goes on to say I'm not surprised younger guys are going into extremer things . They got locked into their , not allowed to go to school or do anything for years and pretty much the only people against that were extremist idiots , at least in Germany anyway . Well , we know what side of the political spectrum you're on . And on the question of should the index ban shows , I don't think so , because essentially it's just a database . Somewhere in the US , probably , morals and laws change based on where you are , and apps should do it themselves . I just implemented a report system in the secret project I'm working on last week , because you kind of need that for legal reasons . Yes , that's pretty well what I was saying as well . In terms of that , I think it should definitely still be in the index . But yes , it depends what you end up doing with it . But yes , and then he also says hopefully the last message for this episode you keep on sending them at a thousand sats each . That's absolutely fine .
Speaker 1I think banning and getting rid of content is almost a last resort . What I believe ends up happening is people are going from commonly used platforms off to weird websites and uncommon places with no moderation . Most things can get resolved by talking it out . I don't think someone having his favourite show banned and looking around and eventually landing on some extreme free speech Mastodon server or other place is helping . If not careful , that becomes a worse outcome .
Speaker 1I think that's got some truth to that and I think it is interesting seeing as we move away from Twitter and Facebook and we move into lots of other places . Actually , the amount of moderation that is going on on Blue Sky , for example , is next to none . There's no moderation that goes on on the Fed . Really . I mean , there is a bit , but you know it's really up to each individual instance . So I think there is something to be said for that , and it becomes much harder to actually , you know , be clear of some of these , of some of these you know , of some of the nasty stuff . So , yes , I thought that was an interesting comment .
Speaker 5I would just add look , morals change right , tastes change . Mary Whitehouse in the 60s wouldn't allow Benny Hill , for example , or tried to ban it . Now that seems tame by comparison . I think banning stuff is a step that we have to consider . Sometimes , I think , when you're talking about rape and prostitution and I think that is crossing every line that I have as a moral standing and I won't allow that content from that man on my platform . But you know , everyone's got different morals . So , yeah , how do you deal with that ?
Speaker 1Thank you so much to our power supporters , or our fandom , our super fans . I think power supporters is nicer . Pick the terms yes , exactly yes , I think power supporters is nicer . But anyway , everybody in the excellent 18 , including the mysterious Star Tempest , who we still don't know very much about , He-she , we don't know .
Speaker 1Yes , exactly He-she , they . So please do get in touch and tell us a little bit more about yourself . That would be fantastic . But also Cameron Moll , marshall Brown , matt Medeiros , mike Hamilton , dave Jackson , rachel Corbett , cy Jobling , david Marzell , jim James , rocky Thomas , neil Velio . Get well soon , neil , ms Eileen Smith , clare Wake Brown , john much appreciated . We should get some stickers out or something . That would be fun , I think . So , yes , that would be a good thing . If you would like to join them . Weeklypodnewsnet is where you go armed with your Visa card or your MasterCard or your I don't know diner's card , whatever it is , then that would be all good .
Sam and James's week
Speaker 1So what's ?
Speaker 5happened for you this week , sam well , as we mentioned earlier , we added support for pod love chapters and true fans . Um , we've added support for blue sky . Oh , what a waste of time . Uh , because we did all the work for social interact tag . We did all the work for blue sky and I don't see anyone using it still , but anyway , we've done it . Um , we're working , as we talked about , with the conversation on the GitHub about activity streams for outputs .
Speaker 5I also just wondered , james , one of the things we want to do is to also export and import your social graph . I think that's one of the big things missing across social media , every website or every social network , you go on , you create your social graph and then , guess what , you can't export it to the next one because they don't want you to leave and so they won't give you that access to your data . Fundamentally , um , I'm looking at because we have a follow model in TrueFans , a standard . Now , I don't know , I'm looking at old technologies called XFN and FOAF as a way of doing it , but I don't know if that's the right way . So , again , one of the things I'm looking at is social graph exports of your friends . It would be lovely to do import as well , and that would actually give data portability across podcast apps .
Speaker 1Yes , that would be interesting , wouldn't it ? I think always one of the difficulties with this sort of thing is , you know , it's fine being able to export a list of the Twitter handles that I follow , but that's not actually useful at all to any other app . So it's that difficulty of actually , well , you want to , you want to export more information than that , but does the , does the service have more information ? And blah , blah , blah . But I think , uh , yes , that would be a really good . I logged into last FM for the first time in about five years , uh , last week , just just just to see if it was still there , and it is um , oh , I've got a good one for you , napster .
Speaker 5Do you remember that one ? Yes , napster , sold for 207 million this week . Wow , who the idiot ?
Speaker 1bought that . I mean yes , and that presumably , is just the name . It can't be anything more than that , can it ? I mean they don't have a product under Napster anymore .
Speaker 5No , but somebody told me MySpace is still sticking out there somewhere as well .
Speaker 1Yes , I believe that MySpace is still out there and , yeah , there are a lot of these . And , of course , dignation is back . There are a lot of these old brands from 20 years ago . I mean Napster . I remember I was working at Virgin Radio . We were getting quite pally with the folks at Virgin Digital , the online music retailer that Virgin owned , and we were getting quite pally with them and building in integrations and all of that . And then the sales team comes upstairs and says good news , we've just signed on Napster as uh , as our exclusive uh music seller . And I thought , oh , brilliant , it's not really what I want to do here , but still , but there we are . We were doing a Napster chart , I think . For a while , I'm not quite sure what the point of all of that was , so that was good .
Speaker 5And then the last one was uh , I listened to Tom Webster last week on podcasting 2.0 . I , I listened to Tom Webster last week on podcasting . I was a little bit disappointed in that . They didn't cover half the things I hope they would . But that's fine . They can choose what they want to cover . But I have to say Tom's got a great voice . Never did radio , strangely , should have done . He's very funny . I don't know him as well as you but and I'm very engaging . So well done , tom , and it's very engaging . So well done Tom . But I'm a little bit annoyed . He mentioned we need a new reference app . That is such an old idea that was dismissed many years ago . We don't need another reference app . Most of the apps now support most of the tags . We just need to get more support into those apps . We talked earlier about a pod fund , psp . Hello , come on , you're the marketing arm . Do something please .
Speaker 1Why don't you say what you think ?
Speaker 5Yeah , well , I'll try not to Now , James , what's happened for you ?
Speaker 1Well , I'm talking to you today from Dublin in Ireland , and very nice it is to hear , so that's all fun . So I'm over here for a radio conference here , before going over to Chicago on Saturday , I was going to be doing a 15 minute warm up in front of the Taoiseach , the Irish Prime Minister . That was going to be very exciting . I was looking forward to doing that . Now the Taoiseach has had to go to paris because you know ukraine , um , and so there will be , um some other minister from the uh irish parliament uh there instead who is on before me .
Speaker 1So , um , yes , he's your warm-up , then he's your warm-up he's my warm-up , yes , so yes , maybe that's how that works anyway .
Speaker 5so that's going to be fun , and how was your last night warming up for Ricky Gervais ?
Speaker 1Yes . So I'm in the hotel where this conference is at . It's right next to the Three Arena , which is the big arena in Dublin , and the downside is that it's a bit out of Dublin . You have to jump on a tram to get into Dublin and everything else . But anyway , I thought to myself .
Speaker 1I finished my work at about half past five last night so I thought to myself right , well , I'll go downstairs . I've seen a couple of nice , you know , restaurants close by . I'll pop in for a Thai meal or something like that . So went downstairs and it was really really busy Busy in the hotel , busy outside , busy in the hotel , busy outside . There's one pub close to us and that was absolutely jam-packed , rammed , and I thought what is going on ? Did a quick search on my phone who is playing at the three arena ? Anyway , it's Ricky Gervais , isn't it ? So Ricky Gervais was on last night , he's on tonight , as we record this , and so I know that it's going to be very difficult to get any food or anything . So still , there we are , but we've got dinner laid on for us this evening . I was going to say otherwise you could have done .
Speaker 5Don't you Know who I Am ?
Speaker 1As if that's going to happen . Yes , and a couple of things on my blog that you might want to go and read , perhaps . Theoretically , that's at jamescridlandnet . One of them is the definition of a podcast , which I actually posted as a comment on LinkedIn a while ago , but I thought was a good plan to actually stick it on there .
Speaker 1And it was just pointing out that in the US , the radio people said that basically radio , the only thing that counted as radio , was AM and FM radio , and so , as a result , radio is in decline in the US . Everybody is losing their jobs because they're running out of money and blah , blah , blah . Because they defined radio as being AM-FM , when about 20% of all radio listening now happens on the internet , on satellite radio . It's also a big thing . And of course , podcasting is a big thing , which quite a lot of other markets have claimed as their own . So I basically said don't be like US radio , but theoretically worth a read . And I'm still trying to understand what's going on with the podcast downloads for the Pod News Daily , which jumped from somewhere around 3,000 downloads a day to well , what am I currently getting ? I'm currently getting something like 20 , no 37,000 downloads 10x , 12x growth .
Speaker 1Yes , easily 12x growth . Now it's all IAB , verified downloads and everything else . But it's also pretty obvious that they're all automated and that they're all automated and that they're all coming from something to do with Google News . So it's been a real frustration . I've raised this a few times now with Google and I've said what is going on .
Speaker 1I'm not sure I can continue to afford this extra bandwidth because it is costing me quite a lot of money . The file that I'm feeding them is now a 32K mono AAC file . It's not the world's nicest sounding file ever , but yeah , but even so , it's still going to probably cost me an extra $300 this month because of all of this data . Anyway , I'm now hearing from another podcast company which is seeing similar not quite as obvious as me , but they are seeing similar as well . So perhaps there is something going on at Google News that Google don't necessarily want to talk about , but it seems to me to be that Android phones are randomly downloading audio that they shouldn't be and weirdly downloading the Pod News Daily podcast for some reason . Don't really understand why that would be the case , but anyway .
Speaker 5Well , there was a report that open source sites are under attack from AI bots scraping them .
Speaker 1Yes , well , that is definitely the case .
Speaker 5Yes , yeah , absolutely . And I wonder whether yours is coming under some sort of attack in a similar way , because , being a three-minute podcast and a daily podcast , you are a perfect test site for many people because you have that consistency every day , but it's also small enough a size file not to be a problem for many people because you have that consistency every day . Yeah , but it's also small enough a size file not to be a problem . I wonder whether that's it .
Speaker 1Yeah , no indeed , it may be that . I mean , it's very clearly the Google News feed that they're using , because I give Google News a slightly different file , so it's very clearly that . But the weird thing is is that all of the downloads are happening from Android phones definitely from Android phones , very clearly that . But the weird thing is is that all of the downloads are happening from Android phones definitely from Android phones and also all happening from either Malaysia or Indonesia , and that's it . So if I was to , I mean , I could block Malaysia and Indonesia entirely , which would be one way of doing it . But yeah , it's just very , very strange .
Speaker 1But the frustration is that Google say that they are investigating , but they haven't asked for any of my files , any of my log files , any of my information . They haven't asked me any questions at all . So I doubt that they're really investigating , and so I think we just need to put a little bit of uh , you know of , uh , of , of , um , of , uh , you know um hard work on them to actually get them to uh understand what is what is going on . But I'm seeing , I mean , you know , some of these downloads are just ridiculous , you know , in terms of the um , uh , in terms of what I'm actually getting there . So anyway , so that's been , that's been fun to be playing with .
Speaker 5Doesn't it go on to prove ? Downloads don't matter as a metric and it's listens that actually matter . Because if you were unscrupulous , what you could do is go back to every one of your sponsors or advertisers and say , hey look , we've got a 12x increase . Can we have more money from you ? And I bet you many , many people would have done that .
Speaker 1Yes , I'm sure I mean it's lovely for the figures . This is the first time , for example , that I've had over a million downloads in the last month and , as it stands , I think I'm going to get over 3 million downloads in the last month . So I mean it's wonderful for the figures , but it's very clearly automated and very clearly . Poor people in Malaysia and Indonesia are paying data bills to download my show for some reason . I think it's a bug , but they're certainly not listening to it . So I think it's yeah . So anyway , I would like to find out what's going on there . If you think you can work it out with me , then you'll find there's a long blog post which is called Odd Podcast Downloads on my personal blog , jamescridlandnet . And that's it for this week . All of our podcast stories were taken from the Pod News Daily newsletter atcridlandnet , and that's it for this week . All of our podcast stories were taken from the Pod News Daily newsletter at podnewsnet .
Speaker 5You can support this show by streaming sats . You can give us feedback using the Buzzsprout fan mail link in our show notes . You can send us a super comment or become a power supporter , like the excellent 18 at weeklypodnewsnet .
Speaker 1Our music is from Studio Dragonfly . Our voiceover is Sheila D . I'm meeting Studio Dragonfly in an hour and a half .
Speaker 5Yeah , for a coffee , that's nice , get her to do the YouTube jingle yes , our audio is recorded using Clean Feed .
Speaker 1We edit with Hindenburg . We're hosted and sponsored by Buzzsprout . Start podcasting , keep podcasting . Get updated every day . Subscribe to our newsletter at podnewsnet .
Speaker 4Tell your friends and grow the show and support us , and support us . The Pod News Weekly . Review will return next week . Keep listening .
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