Announcer: 0:00

The Pub News Weekly Review. With Buzzsprout Podcast hosting made easy.

Sam Sethi: 0:07

I'm joined today by a friend of the show. Her name's Megan Lazovic. She is the Edison Research Vice President. You may have seen her recently hosting the Infinite Dial 2025 with James Cridland. Megan, hello, how are you?

Megan Lazovick: 0:21

Hi, sam, I'm great Thanks for having me.

Sam Sethi: 0:24

What a great job. Well done to you and to James on the presentation. It was really insightful, and what I'd love to do today is now start to unpack some of that. Now you've had time to decompress, I guess, from having to put it out there. It'd be lovely to go through some of the highlights with you and get your further thoughts really. So, first of all, let's start off with Infinite Dial. How long has it been going?

Megan Lazovick: 0:48

So it is the 27th year of the study and it was started by Edison President, larry Rosen and the team back then. And I actually gave a shout out to Pierre Bovard who is, with Cumulus, one of the sponsors of the report, but he really is the one who came to Larry way back then to talk about internet radio and they wanted to get a sense of how Americans are using it. And we're so lucky that we've been able to find sponsors for the studies for 27 years so we've been able to measure that growth over time and all of the digital audio consumption and other consumer behaviors over that time.

Sam Sethi: 1:28

You've also grown the infinite dial to be in other countries as well. Where are the infinite dials?

Megan Lazovick: 1:34

We have many different infinite dials, not necessarily consistent every year in every country. We've done Germany, we've done South Africa, australia. That one is coming up actually. I don't know if We've done South Africa, australia. That one is coming up actually. I don't know if we've officially announced it, but you can look for that one this year. We've done New Zealand, many years ago, I think, we did Ireland, uk. So really we're trying to get it anywhere we can. Ideally we can get to a place where we're doing it every single year in every country. So we can get the same benefits that we do with the US study, where we see year after year consistency and we're able to see how habits have grown.

Sam Sethi: 2:14

But it's also nice if we can only do the study every two years to look at consumer behaviors that way, so the study highlights critical insights into podcast consumption, online audio trends, in-car audio usage, smart speaker usage, social media behaviours and other digital media. Now, what was the big highlight One that James, I think, highlighted on Pod News Daily was that podcasting has gone mainstream. Over 50% of people now are consuming or listening to a podcast. Is that the big takeaway for you from the report, or was there something else that you thought? No, that was not the big takeaway, James. This is what the big takeaway is.

Megan Lazovick: 2:57

Well, the big takeaway is up. Things are up. Digital consumption is up, but especially podcast consumption is up, and that's the thing that everyone is holding their breath for every single year. You know I have reporters messaging me. Can you just tell me, is it going to be up? You don't have to give me the number Is it going to be up?

Megan Lazovick: 3:17

So that was the great news, that every year we've previously reported podcast listening. That podcast listening is now up 70% of Americans have listened to a podcast. That's up from previous years. And of course, the exciting bit of this year is that we didn't just measure listening, we also asked about watching podcasts, and 51% of Americans have watched a podcast. So you know the majority of Americans are consuming podcasts through video. And then when you sort of roll up that information and look at the combined consumption figures, we have an even higher jump 73% of Americans have consumed a podcast either through audio or video. So it's pretty much up any way you look at it. If you're just looking at audio, we see increase. If you roll in those video numbers, you see even more of an increase, which is exciting for everyone in the space. They want to be able to say look how much we've grown.

Sam Sethi: 4:13

Yeah, and one of the things in the report is that YouTube is a service used most often to listen to podcasts, which, again, given that they've only gone into the market, that was also a staggering standout for me.

Megan Lazovick: 4:26

Well, of course, podcasts have been on YouTube for many years. And actually, sam, I should tell you I know that you're looking at it from the tech side I'm always looking at it from the consumer side. While I do work with the surveys and the quantitative research, I spend a lot of my time in qualitative research, where I'm talking to real people about their consumption. And you ask a real person about their consumption to podcasts, they say, oh, yeah, I've been listening to podcasts or I've been watching this podcast on YouTube for years. So the consumers don't necessarily think about the tech and the networks and all of that. They don't see it the same way that people in the industry do. So we say, oh, youtube just got in the space, or they finally just talked about it in their yearly meeting. But no, they've been in the space because that's where people are. They're heavily using YouTube for so many different parts of their life, so it makes sense that they're also consuming podcast content through YouTube.

Sam Sethi: 5:25

So I love the fact that everything's up. But looking back over the last six, seven months, maybe even the last couple of years, we talk about a number of redundancies within the industry. We talk about the fact that advertising revenue is not going across that 2 billion threshold. How do we equate the two, between a growing audience that's listening and yet a declining industry in terms of the number of people? So where do we balance those two parts of the conversation?

Megan Lazovick: 5:54

I mean there's an ebb and flow in every part of business and adjustment, readjustment, and I'm sorry I can't necessarily speak to all of that again because I'm so in the consumer world. But we do know the opportunity is there and hopefully having these new numbers can help the industry prove their case, prove that people are consuming, that people are getting the messaging and that it's really valuable messaging. And one of the other studies I know we'll get to later the fandom phenomenon does talk about the amazing relationship that listeners have with podcasts and how much they value messaging through those podcasts. So the opportunity is absolutely there and it's growing because more and more people are entering the space every day. So how the industry harnesses that, I can't help you there, I'm sorry. The opportunity is there. That's what you guys have to figure out.

Sam Sethi: 6:51

Okay Now, one of the other things that's quite interesting was car audio continues to grow. Why is that? Are we all coming out of COVID? Is this just going back to where it was pre-COVID, or is this a growth beyond what was there before?

Megan Lazovick: 7:03

So I think it has less to do with COVID and more to do with the adoption of technology in the car. Infinite Dial has been showing growth in digital audio usage year after year after year, very, very fast on mobile devices et cetera, but the car environment moves so much slower. People own their car for 10 years, so even though that technology is out there, they're not adopting it as quickly as they do in other parts of their lives. So the exciting part here that we're seeing in some of the data points about automotive phone integration system is that we're finally reaching a tipping point where more than a third of Americans have these systems and use these systems in their cars. So people are hooking their phone into Apple CarPlay, into Android Auto. That is changing consumption behaviors in the car and it's making so much easier for them to take their behaviors listening to their podcasts, listening to their music services that they would normally do outside and bringing that into the car.

Sam Sethi: 8:06

Are we then seeing when you talk about audio consumption overall, are we then seeing people's attention and time that they have available increasing with podcasting, but does that mean they're decreasing with radio?

Megan Lazovick: 8:19

Radio is still very strong in the car and the study, infinite Dial, did not measure it in that way, so I can't answer that question. But our Cherivere study measures overall habits and time spent listening. Infinite Dial is more about the reach how many people are doing these behaviors. Cherivere talks about the amount of time that people are spending and so that definitely subscribers have answers to all of those questions both inside and out of the car.

Sam Sethi: 8:47

So when will the next share of ear report drop?

Megan Lazovick: 8:50

So Share of Ear is a quarterly subscription study from Edison Research, so all of our subscribers have access all of the time and get updates on that data every quarter. But we do release tidbits for everyone else every now and then. If you subscribe to Edison's Weekly Insights that's our weekly newsletter that drops on Wednesdays we often provide free data from Share of Year, so it isn't one report per se. But subscribe to Edison Weekly Insights and you'll get data on Share of Year, and actually I think we do have an in-car Share of Year tidbit coming. So subscribe now and maybe you'll see something soon.

Sam Sethi: 9:33

Now this is, as you said, the overall consumption in audio as well, not just purely in podcasting. But you're also looking at social media. You're looking at TV. You know YouTube have talked about their primary platform is now going to be TV, which is for me very weird because I've never really looked at YouTube on a TV. Again, that's what people are telling you. But social media itself? Where are you seeing the changes occurring there? What's happening with people's behaviours?

Megan Lazovick: 10:03

Well, can I tell you just related to Infinite Dial, anecdotally, we used to have lots of live conversation on Twitter. Everyone used to watch Infinite Dial and use the hashtag and talk on Twitter and social media usage has been a lot more disjointed. You know, there's a big loss to the X platform. People have moved to other platforms and for the webinar itself it was great. All of our viewers were actually chatting in the Zoom platform to each other because there wasn't one platform that we were all together. So it was nice for the webinar.

Megan Lazovick: 10:40

I enjoyed seeing everyone chatting, but it's also frustrating that there doesn't seem to be one platform that we were all on. Of course there's the meta platforms Facebook, instagram. They're really dominating the space. But Infinite Dial and, I think, the podcast world when we're talking about more business stuff where has that landed? I'm not necessarily posting about Infinite Dial on my Facebook, so it's very interesting. The space and the Infinite Dial does show all of the changes and where people have left, what platforms are growing.

Megan Lazovick: 11:14

And actually my favorite question from that section was about TikTok, because we were fielding the study in early January when everyone thought TikTok was going to go away and we wondered what would happen. Where would people go? So we actually added that question in the study. If TikTok were to be banned in the US, which one social network service would you use most often? So we got to that hypothetical answer and most people said that they would go to Instagram or Facebook. But it did vary by age. So the younger people were more likely to choose Instagram, older people were more likely to choose Facebook. But there was a good cohort across all generations that said they would use YouTube and YouTube Shorts.

Sam Sethi: 11:56

Yeah, james was laughing about Mastodon didn't really get a mention in there. It was like at the bottom, bringing it all up, is Mastodon? Yeah, I think it's very technical and very geeky and that's where we all hang out. But I think Blue Sky seems, for my anecdotal friends, to be the one that everyone seems to be now regravitating towards. And then the other one I wonder whether you would do it next time you do a report, whether you would do it on YouTube with the live chat, because I've been watching a lot of political podcasts and a lot of sports podcasts are using the YouTube platform to do live video and using the super chats and the chats down the side as their mechanism of getting their community to gravitate and talk.

Megan Lazovick: 12:41

Yeah, we probably should dig more into YouTube next year, but I will say this is why this research is so important because people forget how their world is so different from others. In your space, everyone is using blue sky. I'm on blue sky too, but when we looked at the data, we saw that it was very different. We looked at Republicans versus Democrat and blue sky was way heavier among Democrats than it was Republicans. So it's like everyone has their little bubbles. If it was called red sky, the Republicans would have gone Democrats than it was Republicans. So it's like everyone has their little bubbles.

Sam Sethi: 13:16

If it was called Red Sky, the Republicans would have gone there. Because it was called Blue Sky, the Republicans couldn't go there.

Megan Lazovick: 13:22

I didn't even make that connection, but very funny.

Sam Sethi: 13:25

So will you be doing this same presentation at Podcast Movement in a couple of weeks time, or even next week? Gosh, next week.

Megan Lazovick: 13:33

No Infinite Dial lives on the internet for all to see however many times they'd like, but I will be presenting the fandom phenomenon. That's a study that we did jointly with Wondery and Zensu, and I'm really excited to talk about how much people love podcasting and how much podcasting loves them back, what it gives to them in their lives, and all of the different ways that podcast enhances people's lives.

Sam Sethi: 14:03

Well, let's talk about that report. I was really interested in the outcome of that report. You sort of touched on it that there is a parasocial relationship between the fan and the creator. Is this something that was unexpected, or do we not know this already? And if we know now that there is that relationship, how can the creator enhance that relationship with their fan then so no, it was not a surprise.

Megan Lazovick: 14:28

We already knew that there was something really special about the connection between a podcast consumer and the show. We already knew that there was this level of fandom out there and from previous research we knew that people were more likely to trust the messaging that came from a host if they were a fan. So we already knew something was special there. But the intention of the study was to really break it apart and understand it a little bit more, to understand all of the different ways that fandom enhances a person's life. People talk about fandom in so many different ways fans of artists, fans of sports, where people have this crazy love for something, where it's not just, oh, I like it. It's like becomes a part of their personality, it becomes a way that they see themselves, and that exists in podcasts too.

Sam Sethi: 15:23

So is it a funnel effect? Is it that you start off with a tangential relationship you might have just heard of this podcast. Then you take five or six episodes to gain a relationship with this podcast and then you move down the funnel. You now are fully engaged. So is it a state of mind that you become a fandom? Is it a badge of honor that you reach, or is it day one you can be in the fandom?

Megan Lazovick: 15:49

It's not necessarily a certain path for everyone. Everyone has their own path to fandom. You know, some people become a super fan of a podcast because they already love the topic or they already love the personality. Actually, you know, amy Poehler just came out with her podcast and I've loved her forever. She's released three episodes. I'm already a fan of her podcast. So there are different paths and there are sort of and that's one of the things that we tried to do with this study sort of understanding how listeners become fans. There are kind of four different end points.

Megan Lazovick: 16:24

There's sort of the connection that stems from feeling like they're friends with the host. 71% of fans say that they feel like they're friends with the host. So it's connection-driven. It could also be identity-driven. One of the people we conducted, in addition to a survey, we also conducted in-person interviews. One of the people we spoke to said I think podcasts helped me see myself more clearly. They've helped me understand myself. So there's this underlying connection with identity with podcasts. They can also become a fan through emotional connection. Someone said podcasts help me be more productive, they help me regulate my attitude. So or they make me laugh. They 71% said. Of the fans, 71% said they are fans because podcasts help them escape real life. So there's like this emotional connection. And then, finally, there's the sense of community. That's also one of the four primary drivers for fandom 62% are fans because they help them feel like they're a part of something bigger than themselves. So I am a fan of this podcast called.

Sam Sethi: 17:35

You were about to say Pod News Weekly, weren't you?

Megan Lazovick: 17:37

Pod News Weekly. Yes, when I meet another Pod News Weekly fan, we go crazy because we're like, oh my gosh, you listen to Sam and James too. You know there is that sense. It's not just you, it's bigger than you. So those are four different examples, four different touch points that get people into fandom, that sort of drive, the fandom. And it's great for podcasters to understand all of these different endpoints, to better understand what they're doing well, and that's great for brands, too, to sort of understand the different ways that they can connect with consumers through podcasts.

Sam Sethi: 18:17

So you talked about connectivity and community. You talked about fan-to-fan community and you talked about even the Infinite Dial. Used to use the back channel of X for conversation, but you couldn't do that. So is it beholden to podcast apps now to provide better community functions? Because podcasting to me in the podcasting 1.0 type arena, you know the first iteration, it was a very singular act of listening to your podcast, to your headphones, to your dog walk, to your car drive, all it seems very singular. But now, with fandom, you're talking about expanding that out to a community of people who are associated to the single podcast. So is it apps need to do a better job to give that peer to peer communication?

Megan Lazovick: 19:05

Yeah, I think there's an opportunity there. It has to be authentic to the podcast, the podcast host. If you tend to have fans, listeners, that are already reaching out to you and each other, then that's an opportunity to interact with them and give them more, because we do know that those fans want more or appreciate more, but every podcast is different and they provide different things to their consumers, so it has to make sense for your product.

Sam Sethi: 19:37

I think again looking at YouTube, because you know, it's one of those platforms that I sort of dismissed when they first announced they're doing podcasts. Oh, there we go. And when I actually look at what they're doing, they're doing a damn fine job because, as we talked about, live with super chats, that's monetization, that's community fan to fan, that is interaction with the hosts. And then you look at the new version they've released around member access to exclusive content and they do merch.

Megan Lazovick: 20:27

They do merch. I mean they especially if people are already on the platform people are using YouTube, people are using Spotify, et cetera then providing them those touch points on the platform that they already use makes sense.

Sam Sethi: 20:42

Does okay. So from a business point of view now, does a fan or a super fan generate significantly more revenue for the creator? Are they the people who buy your t-shirts? Are they the people who go to your live concert? Are they the people who will, in the podcasting 2.0 world, give you a tip in micropayments? Is that what we are trying to identify, the super fans within our fandom?

Megan Lazovick: 21:11

Well, yes, they absolutely are helping the show in many ways. Podcast fans are so emotionally invested in shows and hosts they love that they often look for ways to engage with fandom beyond just listening to the podcast or watching the podcast. 43% of fans engage with podcast-originated IP through other media, so that could include TV and books. 68% say they have followed their favorite pod on social media. So they are looking for these touch points outside of just consuming the podcast.

Sam Sethi: 21:49

Cool. So you said you're going to be presenting this at Podcast Movement. What day are you presenting it so somebody can go along?

Megan Lazovick: 21:58

Yes, april 1st. I probably should know my time slot. I think it's in the afternoon at some point. You look that up for me, sam.

Sam Sethi: 22:05

Make sure it's after 12 o'clock, otherwise it's an April Fool. Yes.

Megan Lazovick: 22:10

Yes, I'm really excited the white paper is already out, so if you're interested in this data, you can look it up and review some of the stats. But I'm especially excited to show it at Podcast Movement because I also have videos from some of our in-person observational interviews to share that were not a part of the white paper. This is actually it's been one of my favorite studies over the many years I've worked at Edison Research, because I got to hang out with the fans and experience super special live podcast experiences with them. I actually met a young boy in his family His name was Fox in New Jersey and he's a Wow in the World super fan. So I met with him in the morning.

Megan Lazovick: 22:55

We ate breakfast together, he showed me all of his Wow in the World books and read all of his favorite Wow in the World facts and I got to watch him play with Wow in the World toys. And then we got in the car, drove to New York City and went to a Wow in the World live event and just got to watch him with awe watching his favorite hosts on stage. So it really was special to witness everything that the show has done for this little boy and his family and then the hundreds of families that were in the audience that also were experiencing it too. It was, you know. It was just a great day, really exciting to to see that you know again the fandom and how it gives back to the fans, the podcast fans, in real time, and so I have a video from that event and I will share that at Podcast Movement. I'm so excited for everyone to see it.

Sam Sethi: 23:55

Brilliant. Now look, if everyone wants to go and find more about Edison Research, go and find more about the Infinite Dial or this fandom report, where would they go, megan?

Megan Lazovick: 24:05

Edisonresearchcom, and because social media is so disjointed, look on every platform for us. We're there. Look for us.

Sam Sethi: 24:14

I think it's going to you know, like you have with podcasting, wherever you get your podcast, we have to have wherever you get your social media is the next state, right?

Megan Lazovick: 24:23

Right, yeah, find us on edisonresearchcom and sign up for our weekly newsletter. You can find a link to sign up on edisonresearchcom and sign up for our weekly newsletter. You can find a link to sign up on edisonresearchcom as well, because we really do make an effort to deliver never before seen data every Wednesday in your inbox.

Sam Sethi: 24:43

Megan, thank you so much. Thank you for the infinite dial.

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Megan Lazovick: 24:52

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