Announcer: 0:04

The last word in podcasting news. This is the Pod News Weekly Review with James Cridland and Sam Sethi.

James Cridland: 0:14

Hello, I'm James Cridland. I'm the editor of Pod News. Sam and I are away this week, but we don't want to leave you empty handed, so we thought we'd give you this. This is a great interview with Norma Jean Belenke, who Sam caught up with last week. She's just launched a new podcast called Podbiz all about how podcasts make money, and it's a great listen. Enjoy it. This podcast is sponsored by Buzzsprout, with the tools, support and community to ensure you keep podcasting. Start podcasting, keep podcasting with buzzsproutcom.

Sam Sethi: 0:48

Hello and welcome back to Pod News Weekly Review. We have a friend of the show here. Her name's Norma Jean Belenki. She is based over in Portugal at the moment. You wouldn't guess that by her accent. Norma hello, how are you?

Norma Jean Belenky: 1:00

Hi Sam, it's a pleasure to be here. I'm doing great. Now, you've just launched a new podcast called Podbiz. Tell me more about Podbiz. Yes, podbiz is here to answer one big question when is the money in podcasting Show?

Sam Sethi: 1:15

me the money Exactly.

Norma Jean Belenky: 1:22

Show me the money. Show me the money Exactly. So we're really excited to have conversations. I partnered with a former colleague, john Kiernan from the Podhouse Productions, and what Podbiz is really here to do is to have transparent conversations on monetization within the podcasting industry. So everybody's first thought is ads and of course, we have all the ads folks on. We're here to talk about ads. We're here to talk with all the ad nerds. We're here to talk about all the acronyms, and then we've also had a lot of really amazing guests talking about salary transparency and podcasting, talking about how they package their podcast and their offerings for clients, what the strategy is. Around that, we've had independent creators come on who are getting, on average, 1200 downloads an episode, who are making six figures from their podcast. We have some incredible episodes coming up. We've just launched, but we have quite a few in the can.

Norma Jean Belenky: 2:07

So I'm trying not to talk about everybody who's been on the show but whose episode isn't out yet, because it's just too exciting. It's one of those things where you just want everyone to know all the things that you know, and we've been so lucky. Everyone has been really generous with their time. Everyone we've asked has said yes, and I think we all really want to have these conversations and hear these conversations. Right, how much are you making? What's a fair salary to ask for If you are a production editor or a story editor? How much are people making within the podcasting software space? How much are ads running for and what's the gold standard in ads? And I think that people really want to have these conversations and sometimes people are really shy to admit what they don't know, and I have a history in terms of my previous experience of asking all the dumb questions, so other people don't have to, even when I know the answer. It's really important to make things accessible and inclusive within podcasting because we are an open medium and there is room for everybody.

Sam Sethi: 2:59

I've got so many questions off the back of that already, right? So let's break this down off the back of that already, right? So let's break this down. First of all, stephen Colbert had 200 staff making his show, the Late Late Show, and it cost 100 million and he was losing 40 million, and so none of that's sustainable, right? The old TV gatekeepers, I think, are going to go away. I think we are seeing the rise of YouTube-based podcasts, and so, in terms of what's an acceptable size? When you look at somebody like Stephen Bartlett with Diary of a CEO roughly, I don't know, he's got a staff of anywhere between 20 and 50, depends who you ask what is an acceptable size for a hit team, then what would you say? You know the team should be. What's the acceptable payment levels?

Norma Jean Belenky: 3:45

Yeah, absolutely. Well, how long is a piece of string? Number one I think it's really important to make sure that your team is equitably compensated for the work that they do. I think sometimes, if it's your face on it or you're the one selling it or it's your business and your name on the door, people have a bit of an entitlement around that, which is important, right. And also, as the industry emerges, that rising tide is here to lift all boats, and so we had an opportunity to speak to Aaron from AIR, the Association of Independent Radio Professionals, and they publish a rate card every year of what those jobs should be paid, and so I think that that's a really important statistic for transparency in our industry.

Norma Jean Belenky: 4:27

I'm not going to tell you what they are because I want you to listen to the episode teaser, and I also think you know in terms of the staff of a show, it's important to make profit plague of creators, either at small production companies or independent one man band creators get so overwhelmed by trying to do everything, and I think everybody listening has seen that trend where, when social media came out 15 years ago and started to be important and profitable for companies, they let the intern do it all the social media all the time. And now, running social media is depending on what kind of company you work for. One person can run several accounts, or one person can run one account, or many people can run one account, depending on the size of your account, depending on the kind of content you're putting out. I think that flight studio is doing a tremendous job, and the thing that is important, instead of the number of people on their staff, is that the quality is consistent. The reason people want to watch their shows is because they're excited, they want to hear what the guests have to say.

Norma Jean Belenky: 5:35

The clips are eye-grabbing, ear-grabbing, catching your attention at every juncture. And while that can seem like it's super easy to do, that formula takes labor. It takes time to test and they're really known for testing media. They know, hey, we're actually going to come at this with a curious mindset and we're not going to come at this pretending we know. We're going to actually let the market and the data show us what works, and so that can take people power, and I think it's something where we can all say how many people are you keeping on staff? Did it a revenue? And, at the same time, good work takes labor.

Sam Sethi: 6:12

Yeah, it does. And the secret to the eclipse is I heard it from Stephen Bartlett which is they've got a panel who listened to the show before it goes out and they hit the space bar at the thing they find most interesting and then they look at the histogram from the whole panel and the peak is where they put the clips out. So it's really interesting how they do that.

Norma Jean Belenky: 6:32

Yeah, and that data. The time to do that research for each episode is labor intensive. He's got a team doing that and it pays off.

Sam Sethi: 6:39

Yeah, it does. Three million daily views now. So, yeah, they're doing very well. Now, advertising One of the trends that I think I'm observing and maybe you can tell me whether I'm crazy or not is I'm seeing more content going behind paywalls, quality content going to Substack to Patreon, which means that there's less advertising. We've also seen that Spotify and YouTube have asked for DAI to be removed out of episodes so they can inject their own, so creators are now putting content up and putting it behind paywalls and, as you said, joe Budden, I think is making a million dollars a month from Patreon. Going to struggle Is the average rate. The CPM dropping Is what James Cridland sometimes has said. Those people that can afford the subscription pay for no ads and those people that can't ear ads. So if you're listening to ads, it's only because you're not either paying or you can't afford to not have ads, and isn't that the people that the advertisers don't want to reach? And isn't the people who can pay the people that the advertisers do want to reach?

Norma Jean Belenky: 7:51

You know, I think if you're McDonald's you want to reach everybody, and so I think that there is a market for every advertiser. It just really depends on the product and the placement fit. I do see trends of that split between subscriber and free base of listeners, and I think that the industry is evolving in that direction. I was really surprised by the number of people who came onto Podbiz and just went hard on subscriptions, people who you'd think like talk about ads specifically. I mean we just had Brian Barletta on and I was thinking Brian would just go on an ads tangent and he really talked a lot about subscriptions, and so I think we're seeing the direct monetization models work and so anytime you have that kind of industry disruption, there's gonna be a ripple effect toward other monetization models. Are ads going anywhere? No, not at all.

Sam Sethi: 8:42

So from your perspective, then, you're saying that there's still a good balance between ad supported podcasting and subscription supported podcasting.

Norma Jean Belenky: 8:50

I think we're currently seeing a good balance. I think the market will determine what kind of balance we have in the next 18 months. You know, I think podcasting moves in cyclical phases and every 18 months there seems to be new trends. And currently the thing that everybody's talking about besides video is subscriptions, because we're starting to see large platforms implement them. Apple podcasts really came out of the gate and said hey, we've integrated subscriptions. They had a lot of hosting platform partnerships enable those subscriptions from the backend. So as an independent creator, you could just upload an episode specific for your subscription base. Maybe that was an ad free episode, Maybe that was an extended episode, a bonus episode answering questions from fans or subscribers, that kind of thing and so Apple Podcasts really made it accessible from the platform side with their platform partners, and then that ripple effect is what we're seeing now, I believe.

Sam Sethi: 9:41

Now I'm going to ask you a couple of questions based on stuff that I tend to work on and wonder if it's reached over to Portugal and to Norma Jean-Balenke yet. So, in terms of making money, one of the areas that the podcast in 2.0 community looks at is micropayments and Bitcoin based micropayments, called Sats. Is that something that you're hearing from anybody? Do you think that's another monetary stream or is it just off the radar?

Norma Jean Belenky: 10:09

I mean, it's definitely something that has crossed my path, but it's not commonly mentioned, and I also think these things are niche until they're not. People ask me all the time I've been asked on several podcasts about podcasting what my biggest regret is, and I have to tell everybody I only allow myself to ever have one regret at a time. So if I give up my current regret, I've got to have a bigger one, and the one regret I've had for a good long chunk of time is that I didn't buy Bitcoin in 2012. So I was like fake money, what's that crypto? Huh?

Norma Jean Belenky: 10:39

And I think that crypto based products, in terms of value for value, really feed into the ethos of that currency. And I think that crypto-based products, in terms of value for value, really feed into the ethos of that currency. And I think, as time goes on, as we're seeing subscription-based models and value for value grow because we've also had a lot of guests come on speaking about value for value, which I know you know, true fans you guys are really putting at the forefront. I think we'll start to see that more and more. Do I know the pace? No, I think it would take a couple of larger creators who have a fan base to specifically elicit that call to action, to get big movement at this stage.

Sam Sethi: 11:13

Yeah, I agree, I think you know I worked for Netscape and I've always said it reminds me of when the browser first came out and we tried to explain the concept of what a URL was, and HTTP and then WWW. And I remember people looking at me going and we tried to explain the concept of what a URL was, and HTTP and then www. And I remember people looking at me going you're talking Swahili, sam, I have no idea what you're talking about. And of course now it's common lexicon, but it's a wallet, they're micropayments, they call sats. They're not hard concepts, but they are till you know what they mean.

Norma Jean Belenky: 11:41

It's not even that they're hard concepts. I think it's a behavioral question. When is people's behavior?

Sam Sethi: 11:52

going to change, and how do you change the behavior of many people at the same time? So I think one of the things that's interesting this week Spotify has just increased the subscription in Europe again. They haven't done it in the US yet, but they have in Europe. One of the reports that came out from Edison Research was there is about a $5 price elasticity where people will eventually say no, that's just too expensive and they will drop off. We haven't reached that point yet, but I think that's the tipping point where I hope and believe that people will then look for alternative ways of monetizing their podcast or listening to a podcast with monetization, as opposed to paying a ongoing subscription. So let's say, spotify becomes $30 a month, would you pay that?

Norma Jean Belenky: 12:36

I probably would, to be honest, because I have to look at it for my clients, right, so it's a business expense for me. I think Spotify has made themselves indispensable because they have incorporated many different products into one app Music, yes, podcasts, yes, audiobooks. Now they're pushing real hard, and so I think you know the fact that they are trying to compete directly with YouTube. They're not competing with other companies within the podcasting space as much. Many companies within podcasting, whether that's on the software side and on that platform side or more on the directory side, look up to Spotify, and Spotify is not looking at us. Spotify is looking at YouTube, I would assume.

Sam Sethi: 13:16

Oh yeah, yeah, they are so a wannabe YouTube right now. Shout out to the Spice Girls. Now, beyond that, what do you then see, based on all the interviews you've done, where do you think, in six months, 12 months, the monetization? Where is the money? Is it going to stay purely an ad driven market, subscription driven market? Are you seeing other models that people are talking about then?

Norma Jean Belenky: 13:41

Yeah, absolutely so. We're seeing a lot of varied monetization. It's interesting because ads number one I want to say subscriptions from everybody that I've talked to without you know any significant like surveys is the number two ways people are talking about monetization. Other things that are coming up are value for value, which is really big. Events Merchandise is still in the running, you know. I think also, having additional value for your listeners, in whatever form that comes in, is still important. My media brand and their media brand is going to sell packages across their socials that they are boosting or that they're putting a lot of energy and intention into, and that's going to come across also in their newsletter. I mean, obviously, newsletters are really big, but when we're talking about monetization from shows, it's looking like, you know, apart from the big ad folks and the subscription folks, it's looking at how can I package this and what are the different ways, how can I get creative in what I'm selling and how I'm providing value to the businesses that want my audience and, as a result, can support my show.

Sam Sethi: 14:59

Yeah, and I think, with what you're saying there, it's that multimodal capability, how to reach your fans. So I'm looking at companies like Substack, where I think they do a really good job. They give newsletters, live podcasting, video. Domain customization I think this is the Achilles heel of YouTube and Spotify, because if I build my business brand around Spotify, let's say I go all in and I want to be a Spotify. Whatever video creator or I go to YouTube, I can't customize the platform and I certainly can't set a domain name that is my own specific domain. I liken going to Spotify and YouTube in the same way when you had your own website or blog, going to Facebook and building Facebook pages. Right.

Norma Jean Belenky: 15:47

Absolutely. It's an external platform that everybody's on. So I think it's this delicate balance of the internet that's mine versus the internet where I can grab new people right or grab attention, because not a lot of people are hanging out on Substack looking for new creators to follow, but then once you find somebody that you like on Substack, substack looking for new creators to follow, but then once you find somebody that you like on Substack, you're subscribed, you're in, and so it's that model right Of algo based attention versus direct attention. This is why newsletters are so big and sorry. Just also to mention events like we had Giancarlo Bizarro from Crooked come on, he's their VP of sales. They just launched CrookedCon, they just launched their own political podcast conference, and so I think we're seeing people build out communities and that's through direct communication and wider communication on the platforms where everybody hangs out.

Sam Sethi: 16:39

I agree. Now, at the London podcast show, you hosted a panel on AI as well, so where does AI for you fit in, all of the things that are going on within podcasting?

Norma Jean Belenky: 16:51

Great question and, yes, I did lead a panel on AI. I lead many things on many things. I think AI is a very interesting one because, as human beings, we can still detect and kind of feel when it's fake. Right, you can tell when you're listening to something or you're reading a LinkedIn post. That's just a little bit too robotic. And also, you know, not enough people are experimenting with their AI and training it in the way that they should. A lot of people are using it like you would Google, right and so I think it's really important to evaluate your relationship with the AI that you use, because it's also one of those things where you know you can create something with AI quickly, but does that mean it's good? I think that that's a question you have to ask yourself and that your audience will very quickly help you discern.

Sam Sethi: 17:39

Do you think we'll get beyond the creepy line, as I call it, where AI hosts? Because right now AI is really good. I mean, buzzsprout is our sponsor for Pod News Weekly Review and they use AI to help us with transcriptions and show description titles and et cetera, which is laborious work. Once you've done the fun audio recording, it's that post-production where you go oh, it'd be nice if someone can help me do this part. Oh, the AI can do quite a bit of it. Great, so I see it comfortably fitting there. But there are companies who now quite happily will put an AI host voice. Do you think that? You know, would you feel comfortable having a parasocial relationship with an AI? Would you feel comfortable listening on a daily basis? You know, could the Daily Beast become an AI host? And would you feel comfortable listening on a daily basis? You know, could the Daily Beast become an AI host, and would you feel comfortable?

Norma Jean Belenky: 18:33

I have to say you know there's a lot of companies doing this. Futuri has a product and feature where radio stations can create an AI DJ and some of those DJs have become popular and have, you know, regular listenership. I think that it's a fine line. I think it's important to explain that if the sounds like a person, a person, if it's maybe an AI repair of your own voice or you said the wrong date, you know, maybe like a Descript, underlord situation, I think that's one thing. But if you are creating a persona that is entirely fabricated and portraying that persona as a real human beat and say, hey, just FYI, this is AI.

Norma Jean Belenky: 19:25

I think currently, utilizing AI to reduce labor on things that are going to cause a lot of burnout within our podcasting community, especially for independent creators, is always a good thing, right, that pod fade is real and we see the average creator get to six episodes and jump ship and we really don't want that as an industry. Right? How many great shows stop being made because somebody just kind of got fatigue over editing, right, or got fatigue over booking a guest or got fatigue over writing show notes?

Sam Sethi: 19:56

Yeah, so with the AI then you know, currently has a nice place. Should we be labeling, like we do, explicit content in podcasting? Should we be labeling content that is AI generated?

Norma Jean Belenky: 20:12

That's an interesting question, you know. I don't know what does Podcasting 2.0 say about this specifically?

Sam Sethi: 20:21

Well, at the moment there isn't a tag for it. Within True Fans, my own podcast app, we do have an option for creators that can say look, this host is an AI generated voice and label it and then in the user settings you can like you can, with explicit, say do not show me anything that's explicit or do not show me anything that's AI hosted. So we have built those options. I'm hoping that they will be adopted, but not yet.

Norma Jean Belenky: 20:49

Yeah, I think it would be really nice to have a tag that says AI, and I also think that the market's going to determine that right. I think it's going to be a free market moment of what are people going to respond to. I think we're already seeing it on social media, right On TikTok and Instagram. There's a lot of content out there that's completely AI generated and it still goes viral. People still really enjoy it and watch it. You know a lot of those like Reddit story rereads and a lot of videos, I think, on TikTok, where you know a creator is just green screening a video in the background and commenting on it. A lot of those now are AI and they're still getting views and they're still, you know, being able to perform, and so it's an interesting landscape that we're in. Do I think we will eventually move toward regulation of some sort, whether it's self-regulation or external? Yes, do I know what it will take us to get there?

Sam Sethi: 21:42

No, Well, look, there's three stories I want to cover with you now just get your opinion. So the first one is the UK government and to an extent, the Australian government. So in Australia they've now restricted under-16s access to social media and in the UK they've put age verification bars now on content and so anything that's social media driven pretty much. Should podcasting now become more regulated? I mean, it's been the wild wild west of say what you want, do what you want up until now. And, yes, we have brand safety advocates who then, you know, help brands say look, don't put your ad against this podcast because of whatever reason. But the industry itself doesn't self-police. There's no limitation now with these age verifications. I was thinking, you know we talked about ai and explicit content but do we need to be more granular? Do we need to do like tv and film, so this is a u rating or this is an r rating, or this is a plus 15 or whatever? Should we be more granular now?

Norma Jean Belenky: 22:46

I think that that's a very complicated question. It sounds very straightforward, sam, but it's not, and I think that's because podcasting well, podcasting is really one of the last mediums that has complete free speech, for good or for bad, right, and you know, as an American, I have my thoughts on free speech frequently from all over the world that talk about how in their country, they're not allowed to say certain things, and how great is it that within the US, but also within podcasting as a medium, free speech exists. And so I think anytime you put limitations on free speech, that can be. It can be complicated. Do I think that the consumption of media affects people's brains, specifically young people who have developing brains? Absolutely, there's been numerous studies about this. I believe there was also a report that was supposed to be made classified that wasn't that. I think TikTok, even one hour a day, can make you, you know, more and more addicted and change the chemistry of your brain.

Norma Jean Belenky: 23:55

So I think you know when we're talking about the actual implications of it. It can cause harm, and I think podcasting is slightly different because it's audio and you know it is video too. We can talk about that in a second, but you know you're not directly staring at a screen. But that being said, human beings, on a biological level, were not built to consume media like this right. We were not built to hear the voices of many people we will never meet many, many times a day and to have those voices kind of impede our thoughts and come at us at the same device or through the same medium that we communicate with our loved ones. And so I think you know, when we're talking about the actual use case of technology, that's one thing, and when we're talking about the actual regulation of it, that's another.

Sam Sethi: 24:42

I only mentioned all of this because we know now, with the advantage of hindsight, that social media was very harmful to young people, especially to young women body amorphism through false filtering of imagery, self-harming and you know Facebook knew this, they allowed it, it was good for them, they made money and we never regulated them and they used lobbying to get away with it to a harmful and then we eventually regulated it. Social media can be good but it can have harm. I think we know pornography is very harmful to young men. In the main it is, you know, again, putting false expectations on. You know the sexual nature of relationships, and I think we in podcasting have some of that as well.

Sam Sethi: 25:31

I think we have people like Andrew Tate who say things that I think are very misogynistic and you know, and I go. Should they be allowed to say what they say? I mean, I've got a couple of godsons who, you know, have thankfully corrected their opinions on people like him, but in their there are many young men who are incels, who believe Andrew Tate, who take what he says, and there's no regulation, and so I don't like regulation and I don't like censorship and I don't like the way that the UK government is doing what it's doing, but equally, I can see the other side of the coin is we can't allow another Mark Zuckerberg, facebook, unregulated social media harmful platform that takes a decade before we all wake up to the harm that it's causing.

Norma Jean Belenky: 26:21

Absolutely. I mean, I have to say I'm probably on the inverse several people explaining their perspective of how they came from countries that did not have free media. For me to be a little bit more open about speech that could potentially be harmful, it's a very slippery slope. I also think when you institute controls based on age, then you're looking at people's ID, then you're looking at people's data, and so in the digital world, it's a very fine line. I also think when we're talking about youth, there's a parental component that needs to be addressed as well.

Norma Jean Belenky: 26:58

I remember when I was a kid, like you, had to obviously get into the movie that was rated R, rated PG-13 or whatever, but even if the ticker taker didn't care, that day, a lot of kids I knew their parents said no and they respected that, and so I think it's very interesting to see that fine line, and I also, if I had my way, of course, harmful speech would not be accessible to people who would be harmed by it. I also wonder about speech that benefits but isn't convenient, maybe for organizations within authority. It's a very fine line. I do agree on the aggregate level. I think that is probably more population harming than not, and it would be great to institute more regulation, but at what point does that affect anonymity within the medium?

Sam Sethi: 27:39

Yeah, and also, I'd say, deplatforming of people who don't fit the current political party's thinking, wherever you may be.

Norma Jean Belenky: 27:47

Yeah, yeah, it's a slippery slope, it's a slippery slope, it's a slippery slope.

Sam Sethi: 27:52

Look, I don't have an answer, I just you know it's an interesting question.

Norma Jean Belenky: 27:55

No, no, no. It makes me nervous. I mean, I also met some people at podcast show that I spoke with that have a podcast within a specific ethnic community on domestic violence and they have a lot of listenership and not a lot of subscribers, and I think that tells a story. I think podcasting is maybe one of the few ways that women within their particular cultural community can access domestic violence resources. Nobody knows they're listening, they're not subscribed, and so I think that that anonymity still has value. At what cost, I don't think we know yet.

Sam Sethi: 28:25

The last thing on this point is the young gay community. I've got a few gay friends my godson's gay and I've spoken to him about this and he said when he could not come out as a young man, when he was in his 13, 14, 15, and he was confused accessing gay content was important to him and being able to talk to people in that community was important to him. And I think in Australia, for example, by gatekeeping under-16s to content and again, age verification and that self-identification if you have to access that content, that removes that anonymity. I think these are the things that we will see as the side effects of what governments think to do to regulate.

Norma Jean Belenky: 29:10

Yeah, I mean I think it'll be interesting. Let's see what happens when they institute the policy. Hopefully it won't affect LGBTQIA youth that are very at risk because of a lack of support. And also, as a straight person, I've never had to come out of the closet Right, and so I think that just being different in any way in society can cause additional pressure, and so I think it's very important for everybody to have resources, and also we are seeing the harms, so it's an interesting time.

Sam Sethi: 29:35

I've come out of a closet but that's only because I was sleepwalking drunk and walked into one. But anyway, that's another story. Now, moving on the other story that I'd love your opinion and thoughts on are Wondery. Now I talk about Apple being slow as a snail in terms of evolving with new feature and function. And then you go to Amazon and I think they're rigor mortis dead half the time. They literally have a podcast platform, but Amazon Music doesn't mention the word podcast.

Sam Sethi: 30:05

Audible is part of Amazon, but most people may or may not know that. And then you've got Wondery, which is also part of Amazon, and I just think, and I've that. And then you've got Wondery, which is also part of Amazon, and I just think, and I've said it before, it's mini-thiefdoms, those corporate directors of their little thiefdoms who never the twain shall meet. Yo, I'm going to run my little empire, you run your empire, and it's an internal, outward strategy. We do not come across as a single platform. So do you think now, with what's happened, wondery is now becoming part of Audible, gen Sargent has been let go what are Amazon doing? I mean, what is their thought process here?

Norma Jean Belenky: 30:46

Gosh, I'd love to see an internal memo.

Sam Sethi: 30:49

I'd love to see the Epstein list. I'll see that before I see the internal memo Interesting.

Norma Jean Belenky: 30:56

You know, I think that Amazon specifically had a very unique strategy of running in the red for many, many years by spending a lot of money on growth and acquisition. And when you grow that quickly and you acquire many companies that quickly, the integration is going to maybe be more segmented or take more time for the dust to settle. You see a trend, you acquire right. It's build, bury or buy, and so I think when you're that big a company, you really have the means to do that. So I think you know Amazon's audio strategy as a whole has never been cohesive. We're looking at that from that standpoint, if we, if we look back on it in hindsight and when we look at Wondry, you know that acquisition was made at a time of acquisitions. That was a time where if they didn't buy Wondry, somebody else probably would.

Sam Sethi: 31:46

And they bought it pretty cheap, actually $300 million.

Norma Jean Belenky: 31:51

Yeah, exactly yeah. But I mean you look at what was going on at that time and you know, I think it's very interesting to see, now that we're in this post-acquisition bubble, what's happening with a lot of these companies. Maybe they're not seeing the kind of profit they want. Maybe, you know, wondry isn't having the kind of subscriber base that they wanted it to have and that's either through the market dictating or, you know, lack of resources on their end. We'll never know.

Norma Jean Belenky: 32:17

You know, obviously everybody's hearts go out to the 110 people who are looking for work now. I think that's a really important thing as an industry. I've seen so many posts. This just happened in the last like what? 36 hours, and so Ashley Carmen, I think, had the scoop on that and I think once that came out, you know there's been nothing but a flood of.

Norma Jean Belenky: 32:36

If I can help, let me know. If anybody from Wondery sees this and, you know, can reach out, you know, let me know if there's any way I can help. I think that that's really important as an industry that we're seeing, and so that's really positive and great to hear. I think that really good work takes time and labor and it's not always celebrity interview. You know quick to record, quick to come out content and it may make just as much money or less money or more money than that celebrity less expensive production makes. And so when you're looking at strict ROI, you know these are the kind of conversations and cuts as an industry we're going to see from large companies who maybe are in podcasting for ROI.

Sam Sethi: 33:21

I wonder whether it's that Stephen Colbert thing. Maybe the team's got too big and fat because we said, you know, Patreon and Substack and subscription-based monetization is the way forward, I think, and Wondery Plus seems to be already in that ballpark of a subscription-based model. So I'm surprised.

Norma Jean Belenky: 33:39

I mean yes and no. Yes, I just have to say this really quick, though when you're talking about Patreon and Substack, those are creator-driven platforms. Yeah, was Wondery Plus a creator-driven platform?

Sam Sethi: 33:49

I don't know, but it was. It was its own subscription based model, and so if you want to, but, but, but.

Norma Jean Belenky: 33:55

But the shows that were on Wondery weren't? Hey, follow me on Wondery, follow me on Wondery. Follow the way that if you have a sub stack and you're an independent creator, you will never shut up about that sub stack. Right, I hadn't. I mean, I saw the occasional like oh, listen to us on Wondry Plus, but I didn't see the kind of evangelism that those other creator subscription monetization platforms have.

Sam Sethi: 34:17

Yeah, and I think that there's a difference there. I'd say, if it was you or I who's created our own media channel on Substack, we are the owner, and I think Wondry, being a corporate within a corporate within a corporate, is basically not that bothered about it. Oh yeah, we got the platform, but kind of if you want to be there, and I think they wouldn't have pushed it as hard as if you were an individual creator, so maybe that's it. Ok. Look, let's move on from Wondery. Let's look at a couple of other things that I know you've got some knowledge in, given your background. Riverside just announced that they're going to do hosting. Now, you came from a hosting background, so I'm hoping that you have the answer and the insight that we're all looking for, which is why are Riverside getting into hosting?

Norma Jean Belenky: 35:05

Oh, I mean. To me it makes total sense. That's a very natural next step. For them, hosting is a really fun game because once you get a hosting subscriber it is very easy to keep them subscribed and keep their money. Migrating from one hosting platform to the next is tedious and inefficient. So that's number one.

Sam Sethi: 35:23

Number two by design, by the way.

Norma Jean Belenky: 35:25

Yeah, oh yeah. Sure, of course, by design, nobody wants to give up a subscriber. I mean, pay me 120 bucks a year, forever, please. And also when you look at their product I love Riverside. We record pod biz on Riverside. So shout out to Kendall and the team we love them. It's a great platform.

Norma Jean Belenky: 35:43

I think that it's a very natural next step. When you look at that company and how it's growing, you know, it appears to me they've taken a lot of VC money. They have a lot of new roles that they've released. Usually, when a company gets a chunk of VC money, they're going to hire, and so they're in that phase, and so they're going to grow and they're going to keep growing and keep hiring until they profit or run out of runway. I think that that's how it works when you take VC money, and so we're seeing that growth right now.

Norma Jean Belenky: 36:14

Considering how easy it is to record and edit a podcast and to create marketing assets for that podcast within their platform, it makes a lot of sense that the next natural step would be hosting. It's a very easy add on monetization, wise, right. You say okay, for an extra couple of bucks a month, you can also host with us. And you're thinking, oh, I can just have more stuff in one place, and I think all people are inherently lazy and so the more things you can have in one place, the better. And they have built a following of users for their recording platform and I'm sure many of those users maybe it's for a new show, maybe it's for new users will be excited about that product. It's a really smart move on their part for sure.

Sam Sethi: 37:01

I'm sure Descript will follow suit. So what does this mean for hosts? I mean, I talk about the technology escalator where, you know, hosting five, 10 years ago was at the bleeding edge of technology, with Libsyn coming out first with it and now RSScom's co-founder, alberto Botella, said hosting is just a commodity, pretty much, and it's the services around hosting that we make our money from. Are we going to see? Look, spotify has made hosting free anyway, because you have to put your subscribed version of your podcast with Apple. So they are a host by default, right? They just don't want to say it. And YouTube, in many ways, is doing the same. So what does it mean for hosts? Are they going to be able to compete if everyone's going to eat their lunch and become a host?

Norma Jean Belenky: 37:55

I think we're seeing this as the industry develops. Hosting is all about features. I think Alberto is very correct and on the money with that. He's also coming up on the show. He'll be on the show in a couple of months, but it's definitely something we absolutely, absolutely and a big fan of rsscom as well. Alberto and Ben are both great.

Norma Jean Belenky: 38:10

I do think that when people ask me like, oh, I'm going to start a podcast, where do I go? You know, my mind goes to what features does the hosting platform have that this person wants, and so I think we really are in the land of features. Some of those really early hosting companies have been able to establish great features and build in things like directories, like editing, like AI, and so you're seeing features that really enhance the creator experience. Like you said, spotify is made hosting free, which is not entirely free. It's like free to a point, minimally free, free with limitations, and so I think it's something where you know, when we're talking about hosting, it's the value that the podcaster is getting.

Norma Jean Belenky: 38:57

Do they have multiple shows? Do they need a network plan? A lot of hosts don't offer that. What are their downloads like? Do they want AI built in? These are all questions, and I think that when you're looking for a podcast host, that's what you're going to ask yourself. If somebody told you hey, if you're going to make a podcast, use Riverside. And then you go to Riverside and they're like, hey, we also have hosting, that's an easy sell for Riverside. That's like shooting fish in a barrel. It's a very smart natural step for them, for sure, because they already have the feature of having an incredible recording platform.

James Cridland: 39:24

Norma Jean Belenke. An excellent interview would have lasted a little bit longer. We used a slightly different recording platform to record that and it managed to lose the last 10 minutes. Ah well, there you go, norma Jean. Thank you so much for taking part in that, and Sam as well. That's it for this week. You can support the show by streaming sats. You can give us feedback using the Buzzsprout fan mail link in our show notes. You can send us a super comment or become a power supporter, like the 21 people have already at weeklypodnewsnet. Our music's from TM Studios and we're hosted and sponsored by Buzzsprout. Start podcasting, keep podcasting, get updated every day. Subscribe to our newsletter at podnewsnet.

James Cridland: 40:08

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