Introduction to Alex Sanfilippo

Sam Sethi 0:00

Hello and welcome to a very exciting interview . He is well-known within the podcast industry . His name is Alex Sanfilippo , but he's also the founder and the CEO of Podmatch . Alex hello , how are you ?

Alex Sanfilippo 0:14

Sam , thank you so much for having me and I'm doing really well , Excited to be here with you today .

Sam Sethi 0:17

Yeah , we met a few years back at one of the podcast movements and you've been rocking it out ever since . So look , let's start off with . What is Podmatch ?

Alex Sanfilippo 0:28

Yeah , so Podmatch is a software we created just out of a need we saw in the industry , which is basically a way to connect podcast guests and hosts for interviews , and I know that we live in a world where there's plenty of people wanting to be a guest and hosts have a lot of options . Right , the idea is connecting the right podcast guest and the right podcast host together faster , while handling a lot of the administrative functions automatically throughout it , because there's just a lot of things we do every single time . So the whole idea was connecting the right people faster and basically , for anyone who's not heard of it , kind of the easiest way to describe is it works kind of like a dating app , but instead of connecting for dates , it connects for podcast interviews . Granted , sam , I have been married too long to be ever on a dating app , but I'm told that they work very similar .

Sam Sethi 1:05

Just in case the wife hears this interview .

Alex Sanfilippo 1:07

Right Good answer .

Sam Sethi 1:08

Thank you , yes , I don't know what you mean by swipe , right , honey ? I haven't a clue what that means .

Alex Sanfilippo 1:15

You know I got to share a real funny story , Sam . I'll make it brief , but when we first launched Podmatch is when some of the generative AI stuff first started coming out . It was early 2020 . And a lot of the banks were the first ones to use this . When it came to the description of your subscription that you had , so Podmatch was getting classified actually as a dating app , and so it regularly showed up as matchcom or something another one that I'm not familiar with . It was similar to that and we had people emailing us saying , hey , can you please tell my wife that I do not have a subscription to a dating app , because she saw it on the credit card and that's your fault . And we're like , oh no , it was a mess to organize . That was probably our first big problem we had , but the banks were automatically categorizing it and it's funny that they made that decision . So anyway , I have .

Sam Sethi 1:56

I have the same problem . So through fans , my own app , most people go . Is that only fans ? Yes , a lot of people ask me that as well . So , yes , mismatching , as they say . Now talking of matching people , though . So PodMatch , how does it work ? Do I rock up , I register myself and then other people say , yes , I'd like to interview you , or how do I , as a creator , find people ? So tell me how the whole process works .

Alex Sanfilippo 2:21

Yeah , sure , we have two models . We have the individual side and we have the agency model as well . I'll skip the agency model today , but basically I will just briefly mention if you're a booking agent , whether you're booking people on podcast or booking guests on podcast . Either way , we have an agency model . That's good for people . But the individual side is really the core of what we do .

Alex Sanfilippo 2:37

And , yes , if you're a host , you would just go to the website and you'd start the sign up process and it'll walk you through all the different things that we need basically for our system the algorithm , the AI to do really good matching and same on the guest side , if someone's like , well , maybe I have a podcast but I also want to be a guest . Same thing , and you can have one login with both those sides of the account . But the whole thing is right when you go to the website , we want to be very intuitive automatically start and you can message in the platform , you can schedule in the platform . You never have to exchange an email if you don't want to , and that's kind of the beauty of streamlining and automating the process for both sides of the microphone . But , right , when you're finished , you end up with a very beautiful one sheet , whether that's for you as an individual , as a podcast guest , or as a podcast host or as both , but regardless , you've got these beautiful high ranking on search engines and on AIs now profile that you can use as a media one sheet for your show or for you as an individual , and that's one of the things that we don't really talk about as a benefit on Podmatch , but the reality is that's been good for a lot of people because once again , questions .

Alex Sanfilippo 3:34

It would usually come in like hey Alex , I need pictures of you for this interview Great , my Podmatch profile has , where you can literally download approved pictures . Oh , you want my bio ? Great , it's on my profile . You want questions ? I'm ready to be asked . It's there . And same on the flip side for my show . You want to understand the audience , the flow , who I'm looking for . It's all listed in that one place and that's all mentioned and asked during the signup process of a pod match .

Sam Sethi 3:55

Okay , and does this give me good SEO as well ? Can I use my profile for something that people can find me on outside of Podmatch with a link back to the profile ?

Alex Sanfilippo 4:09

Yes , absolutely , and every profile doubles as an affiliate link . So somebody goes to your profile and they see the public version of it . It shows a little bit less detail than the internal version . So if you're signed up for Podmatch but it does prompt people , hey , if you want to interview this guest or if you want to be a guest on this podcast , click here to sign up and then it'll automatically work as that person's affiliate link .

Alex Sanfilippo 4:23

But from an SEO perspective , we worked with a couple different experts on this and I didn't even know what schema markup is and I know this is an SEO podcast and , sam , I know you know that world well but that was apparently a thing that we were overlooking . We're like , hey , if you want this to rank higher in search engines , you want the large language model AIs to be able to figure out who somebody is based off a Podmatch profile . You've got to work on this stuff . So we have put a lot of time and energy into it . We still are to help that , help somebody rank higher , and the idea is it will just increase their authority as an individual and we can kind of see like the future of search is going toward the individual's credibility , and so we wanted to be able to help that .

Alex Sanfilippo 4:58

We had somebody recently leave Podmatch , which is always upsetting to me , but they said hey , what did you all do to me ? I'm like what do you mean ? They're like my website visitors went down . My podcast listenership went down . Like , did you do that to me because I left Podmatch ? I'm like no , that's just a byproduct of no longer having a high ranking profile on those two places . It was probably your best ranking profile on the internet and that was something we really wanted to do just as a bonus for everybody . So to me , it's really important .

Sam Sethi 5:22

So is this aimed at independent podcast creators or is this aimed at the big podcasters ? Who's the target

How PodMatch Works

Sam Sethi 5:30

audience ?

Alex Sanfilippo 5:31

Thank you for asking that , sam . I don't know if anyone's ever asked me that , but it's the independent creator . Me personally , I'm an independent creator myself . I have my own show and I just love being an individual creator and I believe in the power that has in the world . Like together , right ? Sure , there's one show that might be bigger than all of ours combined almost right . But the reality is I really love the heart behind what an individual does and how it serves people . So we're always gonna be all for the individual , the small , independent podcaster .

Alex Sanfilippo 5:58

And when I go to conferences I don't try to meet the keynotes of the big names , not that to meet the keynote to the big names , not to have anything against them . Of course they're great , everyone wants to meet them , everyone wants to sign their show right For me , I want to meet the new person 10 , 20 episodes in that has a real passion , a real purpose for it , and that's who I know that I can serve really well and that's what gets me up in the morning and gets me really excited to be in this space .

Sam Sethi 6:17

So , with Podmatch , is there a payment requirement from the guest or the host in terms of because one of the things that I've been approached numerous times oh , we can get you on a show , but it'll cost you so much money , right ? And I'm like , nah , I'm okay , I'll just bring them . If I really want to be on that show , I'll connect with them , and if I have value , as in what I've got to say , they'll have me as a guest , and if I haven't got value , then I'm not paying for it , right ? So where's the money flow in this ?

Alex Sanfilippo 6:47

Yeah , we do things very I don't know . I don't want to call it like anti . Well , you know , it's just it's not common , it's not conventional wisdom when it comes to software , and I've been told we don't do it right by many people . So I know that if you out , but we actually have no free tier , we have no trial , it's you pay and then you can start , and we've done that since the beginning , just not since the beginning , actually . We did that maybe a year in , and the weird thing is when I did that , our amount of signups organically quadrupled overnight . And still this day we grow , mostly organically , and it just basically kind of weeds out people that maybe aren't serious , aren't ready yet , but the pricing can always change , but I don't foresee that ever happening , on the host side at the very least . So on the host side , it's $6 a month to be a host on Podmatch . That's unlimited matches , as many or as few as you want . So we have some people that do daily podcasts , we have some people that do a monthly episode , and so it's as much or as little as you want . But the one thing that we added is we call it our pod value initiative . So if you're a podcast host on the platform through a pod value initiative which you're automatically enrolled into . We actually pay podcast hosts who use the platform and it's not a whole lot , but the goal is to help them offset their production cost . We charge $6 a month for law of buy-in .

Alex Sanfilippo 7:58

I did some personal training many years ago , sam , and I've learned that all of my worst clients were the ones I gave a deal to or the ones I trained for free . They never took it seriously . They never really were willing to invest in themselves because I told them you don't need to be , just come and I'll help you however I can . And so when it came to podcasting , we realized the same thing . We charge $6 a month not to make $6 a month off of you . We give it back to you , plus a lot more . I just need to know that you're serious . If you can't pull up your wallet , I can't pull mine out for you . And so our goal is to break a million dollars back in the hands of podcasters , and at time of recording , we're just over $900,000 we've given back and so really excited about that . Like that's been a goal from day one and it's just our way of helping them offset the production costs , because there's money involved in podcasting .

Alex Sanfilippo 8:38

Now , on the guest side , alicia , my wife she's the one who knows the numbers really well , so , forgive me , I don't actually know how much it costs , but we've done our best to keep it very affordable as well . That way we can have people that have real stories , independent people . We don't want it to . We don't want to remove people from the platform or keep them from getting on if they can't afford it . So we kept it a price point that's affordable to make sure that people would be able to join and again share authentically that independent creator , that person who maybe has a newer business or just doesn't have a lot financially , but they have a really good story . So we've done our best to keep the whole thing affordable and that's going to be our long-term goal . We don't have this future pricing structure that's going to increase it over time . We want to make sure that it's good for everybody . We want to be people that are really serious .

Sam Sethi 9:17

Okay , so describe a little bit more to me . So I'm a guest , I've registered , I've put Is this like Calendly ? Get a request for time ? Are you integrated with things like Riverside or Descript ? How much of the workflow is an integrated process and how much do I have to do individually with the tools that I probably use today ?

Alex Sanfilippo 9:43

Yeah well , sammy , you might know this , but a lot of podcast hosts , they like to keep a lot of it manual . But we found that on PodMatch we've been doing a good job with the training side of things . To explain that like you don't have to . So if you want to automate all of it , the way it works is whoever receives the initial message has the right of first acceptance or refusal . So , like again , if a host reach out to a guest , the guest says match or pass . They get to read the message . You can have some conversation . But let's just assume that the guest is like you know what this seems like a fit . I'll hit match .

Alex Sanfilippo 10:11

The next thing happens you automatically get brought into the host workflow , which is always how it works . Right . The host is the platform . You and I fully believe that , like that's , that's the foundation of it . And so at that point , does the host have a pre-interview , yes or no ? If yes , send them their calendar link for the pre-interview to the guest so the guest can schedule it right there . It'll mirror it in Podmatch and we let hosts use their own calendars . We found that that just works so much better .

Alex Sanfilippo 10:33

Next is the release form yes or no ? If yes , they can sign the release form right there inside of Podmatch . Next is schedule the interview . If they already have the link in there , they can just schedule it from the link . From there it automatically gives . So the whole thing can be automated .

Alex Sanfilippo 10:47

We have a few people very few now , thankfully that keep the whole thing manual . But the idea is you can go through each step without ever having to leave the message thread and it could just automatically go through all of it based off what hosts have I don't do pre-interviews , some people do pre-interviews . Some people have release forms , some don't and then you just kind of follow the whole process At the end , the release date and the link for where it's live or where it will be live , and we're getting ready to add a spot for the guest to mention where they shared the episode as well . So , again , everything is just kept in the same message thread . It's all on like the right side of the message thread , like we call it , like the action panel that shows everything that's happened and exactly where you're at from a status standpoint .

Sam Sethi 11:22

Nice . So what's next on the roadmap for Podmatch ? I mean , where do you want to take it next ?

Alex Sanfilippo 11:28

Yeah . So the big goal is to break that million dollars . My goal is by the end of 2025 and then in 2026 , we'd like to double that . So once we kind of figured it out and the other thing that we've been really working on we added an embedded player into the podcast profiles and we're seeing that bring a lot of traffic to podcast and so we're really doubling down on again the SEO , the schema markup , getting it ranked on search engines , and large language models to help podcast

The Business Model Behind PodMatch

Alex Sanfilippo 11:52

listeners find podcasts as well . So I think the next thing I want to help with is that .

Alex Sanfilippo 11:56

But we don't like to keep people on Podmatch . If you're just a listener , the profile doesn't make sense . And that's kind of where we come in , wanting to work with true fans , like places where people can actually go and engage right , like we're never going to be that . We want to help with that initial introduction , and there's so many places that I feel like they're great listening experiences , but when it comes to the introduction it's a little bit more difficult . We have so much information that the hosts have made available that we can do that . So what we're really focused on right now is helping podcasts grow as well and get discovered . I don't care to keep all the listenership on Podmatch , but if that's your initial way of finding it , I want to make sure that you get to the next best place where it fits you afterwards . So we're kind of working on now matching podcasts and listeners , like we're kind of done with doing the host and the guest type of thing .

Sam Sethi 12:38

So do I get to rate the host after the show ? Does the host get to rate the guest ? I mean , it's sort of an Airbnb moment you know where you've left the place really tidy and you get a good rating , or you've left it trashed and you get a bad rating . Right , do I get to give the host my little rating and vice versa ?

Alex Sanfilippo 13:02

Yeah , thanks for mentioning that , sam . Sometimes I forget our own features that we have . But , yes , and , by the way , whether I'm a guest or host , I always review the other party . And yeah , we built a way right inside of Podmatch . You can see that on the profiles and I guess that's actually one of the benefits of having the Media One Sheet that you get as a podcast guest is it actually shows your reviews . I don't know if there's many places that show that yet . There's a few of us that are doing it now . But , yes , at the way that Apple works . But we also say , hey , this is great for the host , just , if you already left the review , just paste it here as well . So , yes , that's a big part of it . Is that social proof around it ?

Sam Sethi 13:42

Yeah , now a little bit about Alex . Alex , how did you get into podcasting ? I mean , how long have you been involved in the industry ?

Alex Sanfilippo 13:50

So I started my first podcast in 2014 . And forgive me , everyone , if I get the years wrong . It gets a little blurry . Sam , I don't know if you've ever encountered that COVID screwed it all up for everybody .

Sam Sethi 14:00

The lost years , the lost years , yeah .

Alex Sanfilippo 14:03

So yeah , 2014 was my first time starting a podcast which I heard one just maybe two years before that and the first time I heard a podcast saying I literally said out loud because it was in a company I worked at . I walked into one of my departments and said you guys aren't watching this , you're just listening to him . Like that's so dumb . And then I went back to my desk and I was like , well , I wonder if there's anything good , because these guys convinced me . I had an app for it on my phone already . I had an iPhone at that point and , sure enough , there's that little purple app and I was like I don't know if there's actually anything interesting on here . I fell in love with podcasts the same day . I said that this is so stupid . That same day , I started my podcast listenership journey .

Alex Sanfilippo 14:37

Two years later , I got into it and it was really hobbyist . Nothing great at first , but in 2018 , I got my real start . I was going to do a show that I'm like this is going to be a good show and it did really well . And I started speaking at the conferences and that ultimately kind of led me to realizing like I wanted to get out of the aerospace industry , where I was at 15 years in the aerospace industry and I wanted to become a full-time podcaster . Like I knew that's what I wanted to do , whether it was on the industry side , whether it was as a host or a combination , which is what ended up being .

Alex Sanfilippo 15:05

I just knew I wanted to , and so I have a background in aerospace , but not in the fun stuff . I wasn't an astronaut , wasn't a skydiver , wasn't a fighter pilot , just for everyone to know . I worked at a company that manufactured parts that focus on below the atmosphere and but when I left , I didn't start in this position , but I left . I was on the C-suite . It was a publicly traded , multi-billion dollar company , loved the job , just knew that it was good . But this podcasting thing seemed great , and so that's ultimately what made me decide to kind of make that leap from business administration and operations to being a podcaster , a creative , a creator .

Sam Sethi 15:36

And in that time , I mean we've seen the industry change quite dramatically in the last few years . You know , we've seen the rise of Spotify , the rise of YouTube , dynamic ad insertions In my humble opinion , I think , sites like Patreon and paywall , sites like Memberful

Alex's Podcasting Journey

Sam Sethi 15:53

now , and subscription-based podcasting . It seems to be where the money is . What have you seen ? I mean , where do you think the industry is heading ? Are we going to have to be the YouTube industry ? You know , video only , or is audio strong enough as a standalone requirement , without the need for video ?

Alex Sanfilippo 16:18

I think that audio , I think it still stands alone . And to me , here's an example , even if I find a podcast through YouTube and I'll just use as the example . The search engine on YouTube is very , very good . They also own a company called Google that most people probably familiar with as well , right ? So they've figured out this search thing , right , sam ? I mean , they kind of got it down and I think that the historically speaking at least , the player apps , which they are starting to get better and I'm noticing that they're improving their search .

Alex Sanfilippo 16:39

But sometimes I couldn't find what I was looking for and I'd go to YouTube , I'd find it , but then I'd immediately open up my player app , which has the same content , basically right , maybe slightly different in a format perspective , and I'm going to listen to it because I've found I retain information so much better when I don't have to just sit there . I want to be on a walk , I want to be cooking , cleaning , working out , like I want to be doing something active . And if I go back to my childhood , sam , like I had some learning disabilities as a kid and a doctor my mom was taking me to finally just said you know what ? Try letting him play with Legos and then read his lesson for him and see if he can retain it . And my retention went from almost nothing , when I was just sitting in front of something , reading it myself , to something in the high nineties . And it's just because I'm the type of person that I need to be doing something while I'm learning something else . That obviously activates a different part of your brain , a different part of your body , and so , for me , audio is always going to be my first choice .

Alex Sanfilippo 17:35

It's my go-to , and I don't think I'm alone with that , and I think it's just an incredibly non-intrusive way to consume content . Example if I'm going to watch something on YouTube , it is now taking a lot of me Physically . I have to be there , I have to watch it , I have to listen to it . When I'm listening to a podcast , I can do anything else I want . It's not intruding too much in my life and I'm still getting the same good information .

Alex Sanfilippo 17:55

For that alone , I think just us being busy people it's going to continue to have its own space , and so , to me , the future of the industry , though I do believe that it's about doubling down on making good

The Future of Podcasting

Alex Sanfilippo 18:07

content , and I think , at the end of the day because podcasting and YouTube any form of creation online is having such a low barrier to entry . Anybody can do it , but it doesn't mean that everybody deserves to have people that are listening . Just because you can do , it doesn't mean that you deserve the audience . Like you've got to actually do something really good , like what you've done in podcasting , sam . Like you have first off , you have an incredible podcasting voice . Every time I listen I'm like dang , this guy's got it .

Sam Sethi 18:31

You know , like that helps , that helps .

Alex Sanfilippo 18:34

But you're extremely well-spoken and you know the direction of all the conversations , all the any type of content you seem to produce .

Alex Sanfilippo 18:39

Sam , I'm not just blowing smoke , you do it really well and that's why all of your projects seem to do really well . If you're out here not prepared , not trying , just kind of recording , you'd be and you might be like well , why is no one listening ? Well , it might not be good content . Just because you can make it doesn't mean it deserves an audience , and so I think that we're going to find that even independent creators , they have to do a really good job . And I'm not saying you have to spend tens of thousands of dollars per episode , but it's gotta be well thought out . You should get a good microphone , you should make sure that you're showing up in a really quality way to respect people's time that are just engaging with you , and ultimately , I think that's what's going to cause people to stand out . What that looks like exactly , I don't know . I would push to some more experts in the space and even you to tell me a little bit more about that , but my thought is the content's going to have to get really good .

Sam Sethi 19:24

I think you hit the nail on the head . It's it's respecting people's time , right ? If I'm going to ask you to give me your time to listen to something that I've produced , let me make sure it's good , let me ensure it's , you know , in my case , educational . Let's say I'm not a comedian , so if it was comedic , then let me make it , so it's funny . Or if it's instructional , right , and so I think that's the thing I always think .

Sam Sethi 19:45

And you know , the thing I hate with most podcasts is that beginning five minutes where the hosts are like you know , hey , how did you get on last week ? What's your ? I hate that . Get on with it . I'm not here to live your life . I'm here because of what you've got to talk about . If you want to and James and I do this if you want to have that sort of and how was your week and what have you been up to , stick it right at the end , because if the person doesn't want to listen , they're out , right , that's fine , and if they still want to stick around , that's great . But you were at Podcast Movement just now , so two very quick questions here . First of all , how was Podcast Movement for you ? How was it for you ?

Alex Sanfilippo 20:24

It was great . I really enjoyed it . I think that they was this 10 years I don't know which one we just celebrated . It was something like that .

Sam Sethi 20:30

I think so yeah .

Alex Sanfilippo 20:31

Yeah , they've just really got it down to a science , like they know how to make people feel welcome . They know how to organize a room really well , beautifully done . In my mind and for me , I go to just meet the people that use Podmatch , that are community members . I don't go with like any real agenda . I show up to speak as well , like I want to show up and add value , and then I would just want to hang out and they made such a great environment where that was just I mean , welcome is an understatement Like it was just set up to thrive around community , and so for me , this was the best one I've been to .

Sam Sethi 20:58

Good , I've heard some really good positive feedback from many people , so I'm having FOMO for missing it this year , but anyway , Sorry , sam .

Alex Sanfilippo 21:06

I mean it was terrible . It was awful you didn't miss a thing .

Sam Sethi 21:08

That's what I was trying to say that's what I want to hear . That's what I want to hear Now . One of the people you met up with was Jordan Blair from Buzzsprout , sponsor of Puzzle News Weekly Review . You talked to Jordan about some tips for independent podcast creators . What were they ? They were great when I heard them .

Alex Sanfilippo 21:27

Yeah , thank you . The big thing I wanted to highlight with her audience specifically , just because I know how Buzzsprout , specifically , is a very community-driven business , similar to how we do things at Podmatch . That's really important to us and I always find that stuff bleeds into your membership , the people that are in your community , and so for me , I really wanted to drive a point home . When I talked and this is my main point it was about talking to your listeners and forming community among them and around them , and I think that that's kind of one of the next things in podcasting . And , sam , I feel like I'm preaching the choir a little bit , like you've been ahead of the curve on this for a long time , seeing that that's going to be the future of what we're doing and the rest of us are just kind of like huh , maybe right , but more and more , even at that event , people wanted to be there to hang out with people , and that just reinforced the point , and I'll just share this here .

Alex Sanfilippo 22:14

Talking to your listeners , I think is so

Building Community with Your Listeners

Alex Sanfilippo 22:15

, important , and the question I always get around this is well , how , where are they engaging with you ? Listen , if you've got something like true fans , that's going to help you get there immediately . Great , if you don't yet , maybe sign up for it . But beyond that , are they engaging with you on any social platform ? Do you see them messaging you ? Are they liking everything ? Are they commenting ? Have they emailed in Any way that you find somebody that you're like ? I think they're listening to my show . Reach out to them , ask them for five minutes on a video conference call just to get to know them . Now it might sound scary , but the reality is this person likes you . If they've listened to your podcast , they've determined that they probably like you and they'd love the opportunity to probably make them a fan of your podcast If you can give them that time . And when you get on a call , because I think that's so important . There's four questions .

Alex Sanfilippo 22:55

I always tell people hey , you should ask this as a podcast host to your listeners . I encourage you're hearing this . Write these things down , cause I think they're really valuable . Number one just assume they found it through Apple , spotify , youtube , right , but the reality is what ? If Sam mentioned your podcast on an episode and all of your listeners are coming from that , then I'll tell you what your best next course of action is to talk to Sam and be like hey , sam , what else can we do ? Clearly , the people that like you , also like me , like there's got to be something here . Right , correct , you want to find that stuff out . I think that's just to me that is absolutely key . The second thing is to ask them what they like about your show . When I asked this question , there was something I was doing 30% of the time in my episodes only 30% of the time and every person I talked to said that that was their favorite segment , that favorite thing . I would do , so you want to ask you .

Sam Sethi 23:43

Sorry to cut across you , but you gave this wonderful story about your mom , so the mom test . Go on , tell me what the mom test is yes .

Alex Sanfilippo 23:51

So the mom test here , like the reason that I'm asking these questions in this way , and actually to quickly give you the third question , is what ? The question is kind of what do you not like about the show ? But you can't ask it that way . So again , that mom test . Sam , I'm glad you mentioned this . Here's the example .

Alex Sanfilippo 24:05

If I went to my mom right now , who happened to be in my house just an hour ago , she was driving through town . She stopped to say hi . If I told my mom mom , I'm quitting podcasting , I'm shutting down pod match , because I got an idea I'm going to create an umbrella that doesn't block out the sun and doesn't block out the rain . What do you think ? My mom would literally say Alex , honey , you are amazing , you're going to do so . Good , this is , this is the best choice you've ever made . That's what my mom would say . Now , if my mom walked in an hour ago , I said hey , mom , what would you think of somebody who wants to create an umbrella that doesn't block out the sun or the rain ? Do you think that's a good idea ? She would literally say that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life . I asked her the exact same question , I just positioned it differently .

Alex Sanfilippo 24:43

When you're talking to your listeners little bit intimidated even being on a call with you , because they're like , oh , I've only listened to this person and if you ask them , hey , what do you like about the show , what can we do better ? They're going to break your heart and probably not be honest . You need to pull yourself out of the equation . So the best way to ask the question what can we do better ? Is , hey , how do you think we can improve the show together for future listeners ? How do you think we can improve the show together for future listeners ?

Alex Sanfilippo 25:06

Asking that allows them to break your heart without breaking your heart , and chances are they might be like what they did to me . They said , alex , your episodes are too long , you need to shorten it up , and I was like , okay , there's something there . It hurt a little bit . I changed that and my listenership started increasing even more when I did that . No-transcript what you understand based off the podcast content they've heard from you , and I think that it can be incredibly insightful . Learning that can teach you what your next product is . It can teach you how you can serve them on a higher level , can teach you what your next episode should be about . I think that talking to your listeners , building that form of community around them , giving a place to meet each other even afterwards , can go a really , really long way for us as podcasters , especially the independent level .

Sam Sethi 25:57

Yeah , I've got a WhatsApp group where I invite super fans to that channel and I give them early access to what we're doing on TrueFans and so they get all of the information . They see it before anyone else . I even ask them about pricing . I ask them about you know this is a feature we're launching . What do you think Can you test it for me before anyone else ? And that group is so important to me because they give me that feedback .

Sam Sethi 26:24

Now , you know , we've all heard the . You know the old adjective Henry Ford asked what would you want ? Faster ? All heard the . You know the old adage of henry ford asked what would you want faster ? Horses would be the answer . Right , not a new car . But I actually think the people that you identify important as well , because they are the heavy users , they are the bleeding edge users and they're the ones that are going to tell you , you know , as creators , what they want to go forward with . So , fully agree , finding your super fans , whatever you want to call them , and creating whatever platform you want . You know it could be threads , it could be blue sky , it could be whatsapp , it doesn't have to . You know , be that , but I do believe you're right .

Alex Sanfilippo 27:02

Finding that community is critical now I think it's really nice that you use WhatsApp , because so many of us , as we're creatives , we're creators , we assume we need to reinvent the wheel you just mentioned . Use WhatsApp . I'm sure it doesn't cost you anything or much . I don't know how big your group is , but the reality is people can download that . You're like okay , I built an app for us to communicate and we don't need to reinvent the wheel . Keep it really simple .

Alex Sanfilippo 27:23

And the other thing , sam , I don't mean to just repeat what you said , but it's very , very important that we have our own discernment as hosts . An example when you started working on True Fans , people never asked you for that . What they asked you was can you talk to someone at Apple so they can make it more community driven ? Can you kind of do some podcasting 2.0 stuff , like that's what they were probably asking you and you're like no like , can you become a booking agent and connect us manually ? No , they were describing Podmatch . That takes wisdom , that takes discernment and us as individuals , creatives . We need to step back and say I don't need to reinvent this , but this is a gap . This is something

The Mom Test and Listener Feedback

Alex Sanfilippo 27:57

I need to create because I think it will serve my community well . Make sure you're working on the right thing . Again , that takes some wisdom and discernment . We don't have time to talk about that .

Sam Sethi 28:06

No , but we do have time to ask you if I wanted to sign up for Podmatch .

Alex Sanfilippo 28:12

Where would I go ? Podmatchcom has everything that you'll need and I do always tell people to start at podmatchcom slash free . Whether you're a podcast guest host or aspiring guest or host or even an agency , there's something there for you . It's just nine quick ideas . I don't ask for your email address or anything like that . There's just some things I think can help podcasters out . So , again , to sign up is podmatchcom , but if you start at podmatchcom slash free , take a look at those nine ideas . It's just kind of some of the things that have really stood out to me over the years . But , sam , you're amazing , thank you for doing what you do and truly honored to be here today . This was absolutely a