SPEAKER_01 0:00

Podcasting has been stereo MP3 for literally decades. And so to be able to bring immersive audio to the podcast world is it's really been an exciting ride.

James Cridland 0:08

This week is Dolby Atmos, the next big thing. We speak with Tom McCantrew from Dolby.

SPEAKER_04 0:13

What we're focusing on is understanding who that listener really is. And how do you make it so that you can maintain the relationship with that user after that play out happened?

James Cridland 0:20

And how can ads get better targeted? Jared Lapin from Consumable Talks Identity To Me with James Cridlin and Sam Sethy.

Announcer 0:29

This is the Pod News Weekly Review with Buzz with Buzz Sprout. Start podcasting, he keep podcasting.

Sam Sethi 0:38

James, now

Netflix - or Netflop?

Sam Sethi 0:39

Netflix has just got into podcasting, but is it net flop or is it net success? Oh nice. What is Netflix doing?

James Cridland 0:48

Well, who said it was a failure? Matthew Bologna writing in Puck. He ends up saying that no video podcast is charted on Nielsen's weekly top 10. And multiple company sources at Netflix have told him that podcast engagement numbers on the whole are low, which is all very exciting. But I'm not sure necessarily that that means that podcasting has been a failure at Netflix. I don't know. What do you think?

Sam Sethi 1:17

Well, it's too soon. I mean, the arrow of direction based on Spotify doing exactly the same strategy tells us that it will be a failure. But you know, Netflix are smart people, they put a lot of money into it. I think it's far too soon. I think uh when Spotify did it, uh maybe they were too early, as in people weren't really having that second wave of podcasting. They were trying to grow a market rather than ride the wave of a market. Netflix is riding the wave, and maybe we've transitioned out of mainstream TV and into streaming and into the idea of paying for podcasts, etc. etc. And I think maybe Netflix has come into it at the right time. I certainly think it's too early to call it a failure.

James Cridland 2:05

Yeah, I I definitely think it's too early. I think that uh Netflix themselves are chasing time spent listening because there's a big Nielsen chart every single month that comes out and says, Oh, YouTube is doing really good in time spent listening and Netflix is doing less good. And so Netflix is chasing time spent listening. And I just think that that's the wrong thing for them to be chasing. Because what should they chase? Well, I mean, at the at the end of the day, j j just just chase profitability. Um, I mean that that that's the thing that they should be chasing. If they chase um total time spent listening, then how can they possibly win against YouTube? Because YouTube ends up um being able to have all kinds of people on that platform for free. YouTube aren't paying for any of that content. All of a sudden, you know, YouTube ends up with uh all of this stuff that it can slap ads next to or earn money from YouTube Premium, whereas Netflix themselves has to make a choice on which shows they're going to buy and put money up front for. So to me, I think it's just I think their strategy is totally wrong. But I think in terms of whether or not people are using it or not, well, you know, we've we've got the stats, haven't we? We've got the stats that actually a fair amount of weekly podcast consumers are using Netflix, both in terms of the US, where Edison Research have reported that as well as Samba TV have reported that. They've also reported in uh Australia that lots of people are using Netflix for podcasts as well, which I find slightly suspicious, but nevertheless, you know, if that's what the data says. Um so I think that all of that is fine. But at the end of the day, uh the point about successful podcasts is that they are niche stuff, not necessarily mass market stuff. So so they'll never appear on a top ten from my point of view.

Sam Sethi 3:59

We know why they're doing it, because we've said it before, Netflix is generally seen as a nighttime activity, and YouTube is seen as a daytime activity. They're both going for the TV in the lounge um as their main attention source. I I don't know. Again, I go back to I think Netflix are are saying we want more people to spend more time on our platform and maybe we'll convert them from watching a podcast into um buying a subscription to a TV show or maybe switching over and watching a film. I go back to it. I think the big gap in both Netflix and Spotify strategy is Netflix has no music. Again, Spotify can switch us from watching a podcast or listening to a podcast into just playing music, right? And so all the platforms are just trying to get more time on platform as a metric. You're right though, James, Netflix hasn't got a cheap stay-on-platform uh strategy. There's no content that they've got which is uh cheap. Whereas I think um both Spotify and YouTube do have cheap content, but that doesn't mean that they have to spend money to keep me on the platform.

James Cridland 5:15

Yeah, and I think the other thing around Netflix is you know that there is a um an obvious unique selling point of Netflix, but it it has the quality stuff on there, it has the stuff that you spend money on. And all of the shows that I've seen on Netflix have been expensive shows which are worth paying for. So all of a sudden, putting Bill Simmons talking to somebody else on a Zoom call, I I just don't see how that fits into what Netflix is there for. Netflix is there for the premium, nicely produced stuff. So why is it getting some of these um you know crappy uh uh video podcasts um and seeing that that is going to benefit them? I I I just find it very strange.

Sam Sethi 6:03

I think also they've got more competition in the market than they've had, right? So uh Amazon Prime is now producing uh high-end content, same with Apple TV, same with Paramount, um you've got Now TV, which is part of Sky. I mean, I just think there's more content of a higher quality also being produced. So Netflix at the top end is struggling to compete. And so I think they're looking at other ways that they can increase because it all at the end of the day will is it will affect share price and revenue, right? So if the reven the revenue won't change that much because it's subscription based, right? Nobody's coming off the platform particularly. Um so that won't change. I don't think you'll see a spike because they've got podcasts in revenue, but I don't think you'll see a drop-off either. Um but they've got to keep people on platform to keep them subscribing, and that's what's going to keep the share price high.

Low ad-load is podcasting's strength?

Sam Sethi 6:59

Now, you also wrote about drop media saying why podcasting could be TV productions' most overlooked opportunity. But it also in that same article said Jay Leno reckons that late night has too many commercials, and why would you watch that if you can just consume full hour uninterrupted online? And I agree that you know I think I'm watching the um World Cup at the moment, and uh me and my mates are pulling our hair out that the Americans have added water breaks, allegedly add breaks into our game.

James Cridland 7:34

Yeah, Libra. You need hydration breaks in Canada. Now they've always been the referees have always been able to give you a hydration break. That's always been a thing that the rules have allowed, but now it's a pretty well mandatory hydration break in the middle of uh in the middle of each half. Um and I gather that Fox really annoyed people because Fox um crammed in too many ads into their hybrid hydration break so that when they went back to the game, the game had already restarted, which was a bit of an oops.

Sam Sethi 8:05

Well, the other night the referee made them wait till the br ad break was finished before they threw the ball in. I was like, go away, it's a 90-minute game. We don't have breaks.

James Cridland 8:16

Well, I'm afraid I'm afraid the genie is out of the bottle, and you're gonna get that every single uh every single World Cup from here on in.

Sam Sethi 8:23

We're not gonna give it back to the Americans, they've ruined it.

James Cridland 8:26

Right. Um but I think it's FIFA who've ruined it. Oh not the Americans. But yeah, okay.

Sam Sethi 8:34

Um why, though, is podcasting TV productions most overlooked opportunity?

James Cridland 8:40

So I think that uh Jay Leno's point is a really good point in that when you watch um free-to-wear television, there are so many ads on there. Now you're lucky in the UK because there are lots of laws around how many ads you're allowed in a particular hour of broadcasting, although there are many, many loopholes these days. Um, if you're in most other parts of the world, there are no laws about how many ads that you are allowed. And my goodness, the amount of ads on commercial television here in Australia, in the US, uh is just quite something else. And so what Jay Leno was saying is that actually if you're watching a good interview on a late night show, then those good interviews are actually three different parts, and they're all uh interrupted by ads all the way through. So you can't actually um get a proper, sensible conversation going because you have to break for ads all the time. And I think that um uh you know Jane Leno is absolutely correct when he says that if you compare that to, you know, a Joe Rogan or something on podcasting, that that doesn't work that way. And actually you can enjoy uh inverted commerce a interview with uh Joe Rogan for over an hour without any uh without any interruptions. And uh I think he's got a good point there, and that's possibly one of the reasons why late night TV isn't doing particularly well, just because it's full of advertising, it's full of clutter, it's full of things that people don't really want. So yeah.

Sam Sethi 10:16

Is this a siren call and warning to podcasting about overly stuffing the podcast with ads?

James Cridland 10:24

I mean, I I you know I've been concerned about that for a while. You have ex-radio people going, oh, podcasting's hardly got any ads in there, and you can easily put far more ads. It's no um surprise that when you look at iHeart's podcasts, then they are chock full of ads um and probably um overstuffed with ads. Thankfully, not very many other people have copied iHeart's plan there, and um, I would rather hope that they don't copy iHeart's plan because that's the last thing that we want is um podcasts which are just chock full of ads that are just training people to hit that skip button.

Sam Sethi 11:01

And they do. Now, uh moving on.

New law to ban bots?

Sam Sethi 11:04

There's a new law in the state of New York that's set to ban stealth crawlers. Yeah. Bots that hide their identity. What's this one about?

James Cridland 11:12

This is really interesting. So, um, if approved by the state governor, it hasn't been approved yet, but uh the bots will have to disclose uh, but these are AI bots predominantly, will have to disclose when they access a news organization's website by using a valid and accurate user agent string. Now, unfortunately, this is asking for honesty rather than asking for any way of actually proving that this user agent is a user agent, but nevertheless, um it's a new law. It's called the New York Stealth Crawler Prohibition Act, and it does look as if it covers podcasting as well, as long as they've got more than a thousand active listeners in New York. And one would assume that Buzzbrought, our sponsor, has slightly more than one thousand active listeners in New York. So I think that they can probably already um uh claim this one. So I I think that this looks good. There is a equivalent which has been tabled by a UK member of Parliament as well. I mean, obviously it it stands no chance of going anywhere. What with the current state of your country, Sam? But um What's wrong with India? What's wrong with India? If these laws are beginning to be passed, do you have an Indian passport? Uh well there you go. Uh so if these laws are getting passed um uh in some parts of the world, then good. And I think uh more of those laws uh would be good. But it would be better if they weren't just an honesty, an honesty law, but actually some way of being able to prove that this particular crawler is this particular crawler or this particular podcast app is this particular podcast app.

Sam Sethi 12:48

Well, again, it you know, you've got to start somewhere. So uh well done to them. Let's see if anything happens with it.

James Cridland 12:55

I agree.

Interview: Jared Lapin, Consumable

Sam Sethi 12:56

Now, James, uh there's a lot of talk about podcast measurement right now with AMP. Uh, we've talked about this on the last couple of shows. Um they're talking about the play rather than the download. In fact, if anyone listened to the sound off podcast this week with uh Matt Cundal and Meissen, they had a really good episode about this subject. Um, what's going on here though, James?

James Cridland 13:20

Yeah, I mean uh that's certainly one part of it. Um, and I'm I'm still kind of on the fence about whether or not this is a good plan. But anyway, we'll we'll see who we'll see what happens there. Another part of the conversation about podcast measurement, though, is doing podcast advertising through a thing called digital identity. So knowing who the person listening to your show is, so you can advertise the right thing to them. Uh, it sounds a little bit creepy, and you might think that there's no way of doing that in podcasting, but actually there is. At least so says a company called Consumable. Uh, here's who I spoke to at Consumable.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

Gerald Lapp and I'm the chief strategy officer at Consumable, and uh that means that I help to find ways to use audio to uh to reach new listeners in innovative ways, especially with Consumable's Visual Audio Ad Unit, which is an interstitial uh in apps.

James Cridland 14:15

Yeah, so um for those who don't know, what is consumable, first of all?

SPEAKER_04 14:19

Consumable is uh innovational audio company uh with uh a focus on finding ways to create signal-rich opportunities for audio advertising.

James Cridland 14:27

Signal rich. Well, we'll get onto those signals in just a second. I mean, I think podcast measurement is really having a moment at the moment. There's a lot of talk from the Alliance of Measurement in Podcasting about plays and downloads right now. But I think you've got a slightly different view about measurement, haven't you?

SPEAKER_04 14:45

Well, I think we have a different perspective and we have a solution that's maybe complementary or maybe extending even what they're doing. Uh I think it's great that there are other people talking about um the accountability in podcasting and the measurement. And I think the things that they've been saying are um, you know, along the right lines. They resonate with me for sure. Uh they're not necessarily the things that consumable is focusing on. What we're focusing on is understanding who that listener really is. Uh so once that file is delivered, podcasting has some real limitations in terms of traditional digital identity. It doesn't have a mobile ad ID, it's disconnected in terms of play out, which is one of the things they're talking about. Uh and so you don't necessarily know who that listener is, even if that listener consumes the um the ad. Uh and so we're focused on that. How do you understand who that user is? Uh, and how do you make it so that you can maintain the relationship with that user after the download happened and after that play out happened?

James Cridland 15:34

Aaron Powell This is a thing called pod IQ, which I think that you are working on. And lots of it says here anonymized listener data from multiple touch points. Um what what what does it actually allow the advertiser to do?

SPEAKER_04 15:50

Yeah, what pod IQ does is it attaches the mobile ad ID to that podcast user, to that RSS feed user who typically only shows up with an IP address and user agent and that's likely transient at that. Uh we we use the our visibility into the programmatic ad space to understand who that user really is when they go to access that podcast. Uh and we create an identity for that user that's persistent so that you can do things like um uh deliver visual audio ads to them after they've downloaded that podcast.

James Cridland 16:19

Okay, so you're using mobile ad IDs. Are you are you expecting um podcast apps to support that or how you how are you actually identifying a user?

SPEAKER_04 16:31

Aaron Powell That's a great question. We're we're doing it one of three ways. We have channel partners, podcast publishers, uh that run our prefix. And so every time a user downloads a podcast from that publisher, we get the opportunity to see if we can match that user to uh to uh an identity. Uh we have a um a pixel so that an advertiser can do something similar. They can traffic a pixel with their ad campaign and build cohorts of the users who are exposed to their ads that are available in real time for all of the digital uh media strategies that you would execute with uh identity and marketing. Uh and then our third solution we call Pod IQ Beyond. Uh and we see podcast avails that are um presented programmatically across our marketplace. And we're able to make that same match in real time across programmatic.

James Cridland 17:12

And so what are you learning from those? I mean, particularly a prefix. A prefix, you're you're still just learning the same as what a typical podcast download will learn. You're learning a uh a user agent and an IP address. What what what else are you actually learning from that then?

SPEAKER_04 17:29

Yeah, so we're we're learning exactly like you said, we know the episode, we know the feed, we know the IP address and the user agent. Uh, but we also likely have some experience with that user, with that IP address and user agent in the relatively recent past, potentially the very recent past. Uh so in our PRQ audience graph, we're mapping that user to the identity that we saw in their last request, in their sort of fully featured request, if you will, fully decorated request, uh, so that we can understand the uh the other attributes of that user that weren't presenting in the podcast request.

James Cridland 17:58

Okay, so you're so you're learning things like um uh what other podcasts this person has listened to. You're learning um uh I guess you're using um some of the other databases which are out there, the identity databases which sort of help you to learn is the is the you know, are the children at this uh IP address? Uh yeah, and that and those sorts of things.

SPEAKER_04 18:20

That's exactly right. We would also know things like the apps that that user typically engages with. Um and you know, for for advertisers who are using CRM data, we may be able to map it to their CRM so that that advertiser can speak specifically to that user uh instead of generally or hopefully.

James Cridland 18:36

We talk a lot about identity, but actually this isn't the user's identity, is it? It it's it's information about that user, but still keeps them anonymous, I I guess.

SPEAKER_04 18:45

Uh mobile ad ID, I believe, is an anonymous identifier, yeah. Um but it it's it's one that's that's persistent and it maps to things like ramp IDs, which are fully anonymized, uh pseudo-anonymized. I'm sorry. I think ramp IDs are pseudo-anonymized, which would mean that mobile ad IDs, I think, actually are as well.

James Cridland 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:01

Uh but that then allow you to map them to all of these audience segments you're talking about, proprietary audience segments, and to really understand the breadth and depth of that user um uh across their digital consumption.

James Cridland 19:12

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I you know, I might be listening to a self-help podcast about how to stop gambling, for example, but I don't necessarily want people to know that I gamble. Or, you know, maybe I'm in Indonesia or I'm in the UAE, I'm listening to an LGBTQ podcast where um being LGBTQ is illegal. Um, what does it mean for privacy?

SPEAKER_04 19:33

That's a great question. And actually, you you present some things that are are very easy to answer. We focus on the US uh with this solution. There are obviously lots of privacy controls within the US and outside the US, and and they're all things that we respect as we enter markets. Um, but primarily this feature and the audience segments that map to uh to users that we identify this way. Same as anybody would in any other digital interaction. If you're on your phone, this is happening already with your app exposures, with your mobile web exposures, uh with your streaming exposures. Uh and we always do it in a way which is compliant with the local laws. And we certainly don't want to create um extra anxiety for a user we're not doing anything that's sort of unique in the digital ecosystem, just unique in podcasting.

James Cridland 20:13

Is there a way to opt out of this sort of thing from a consumer's point of view?

SPEAKER_04 20:18

There absolutely is. Uh there are a whole bunch of ways to do it, uh typically through um opt-out in ad exchange.

James Cridland 20:23

How would a user know if they're listening to a particular podcast, how would a user know how to opt out?

SPEAKER_04 20:28

They are generally opting out of tracking. That's how they would do it. It wouldn't be on a on a per podcast basis. Uh they would not be passing their ID on their mobile device, for example.

James Cridland 20:36

Aaron Powell Right. So they would they would need to opt out somewhere else? It's uh setting on their phone that that would would obscure passing out IDs. Okay. So so we are talking about the mobile ID, which is on somebody's phone, but Apple Podcasts doesn't send that through. Most of the other podcast apps don't send a mobile ID through.

SPEAKER_04 20:56

No, none of none of them really do.

James Cridland 20:58

No. So so so I'm a bit confused as to how the mobile ID works with podcasting.

SPEAKER_04 21:04

Yeah. So we're we're mapping it in our graph for that user. So consumable sees that user in a lot of different environments, including their regular mobile app usage. Okay, I see. When you're playing Tetris or checking the weather in that app, if you're passing your mobile ad ID, we would likely have that ad ID and know your IP and UA as well. And so we map it through that process.

James Cridland 21:23

Okay. That makes that makes perfect sense. That's true.

SPEAKER_04 21:26

You're absolutely right, though. The the the fact that that RSS doesn't really sort uh support mobile ad IDs or or really any persistent identity is a challenge in podcasting in in terms of sort of parity with modern digital marketing.

James Cridland 21:40

So uh so let's assume that everybody in the world is using Pod IQ to learn more about their listeners. What does that mean for advertisers? What can advertisers do that they can't currently do right now in terms of podcasting?

SPEAKER_04 21:55

They can be more selective in the users that they speak to. Uh and so they can be more precisely. Precise in their marketing efforts. The idea, my sort of fantasy of how advertising should work is that the messages should all be additive and there should be things that are relevant to me. And obviously having an identity and making that available to a marketer helps to do that.

James Cridland 22:12

Right. So I mean, as an example of that, I guess that you wouldn't be advertising to me, you wouldn't be advertising, you know, makeup or hair dye. Uh maybe hair dye, but but not but not makeup. Uh, you know, I guess because it knows that I'm I'm a boy and not and not a girl. Would that be the sort of the sort of you know basic, obvious thing? Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 22:34

And you can do that obviously with identities, you can do that contextually, there are a whole bunch of ways, and it's a question of which is most precise and which is most relevant for that for marketing effort. We really think that there's a lot of opportunity in pod IQ in making just that listener relationship more more sticky for advertisers. Um that's it's a big challenge in podcasting, right? Everybody's moving to more contextual advertising because they don't love the identity solutions, as you you pointed out. But podcast is very, very weak in every way. And so even a probabilistic identity that's available in real time is really valuable because you can you can do something with it. Whereas right now, once that file is sent, you don't really know very much about that person. And if they didn't download it at home, you have no chance to know very much about that person. And you use the word probabilistic there.

James Cridland 23:18

Uh yeah. What does that mean in reality?

SPEAKER_04 23:21

It means it means we don't know for sure. Right? To to sort of be very blunt about it. Probabilistic identities are ones that are are assumed, right? There's a whole bunch of of signal that sort of triangulates on that that being uh who that person is, whether it's uh uh an attribute, an interest, or or a person, right? Um whereas deterministic, we we know because you registered or you sent us your email address or you told us.

James Cridland 23:46

Yeah, and so and so in this particular model, you're using the signals that you've got from elsewhere to um to essentially work out who this person might be or what type of person this person might be.

SPEAKER_04 24:00

That's that's exactly right. The only way to be deterministic is to have them registered, ask them. Uh and there's there's no way to do that with RSS.

James Cridland 24:07

And so uh and so this fits into the current conversation going on around um podcast measurement. Um, because of course, you know, we're we're talking about plays, we're talking about people. Um at the moment, the uh the only standards that we've got through the IAB talks about downloads and talks about uh devices, really, although they call them uh a l listener, it's not really measuring uh uh that. So actually, right now, uh this is a good time to be talking about the potential of um more uh identity-driven uh uh information, if we're also talking about changing the way that we're measuring podcasting.

SPEAKER_04 24:49

Yeah, I think that's right. Just generally better understanding in the efficacy of the message, right? If I insert a message in a podcast and it gets downloaded but never gets played, which I'm sure happens often. I'm sure we all know that happens often. It's not a particularly valuable execution. If I insert an ad in a podcast that that um does get played but is played to the wrong user, it may not be valuable. Uh and so having some visibility to know did that ad performance actually happen. Um, because right now the standard, as you said, is that the file got downloaded and and that that means the file got downloaded, it doesn't mean much more than that. Um, is great. And and so sort of a uh belt and suspenders in the limitations of RSS is that at least you know who that user was that downloaded it. And so maybe you can speak to them in other environments as well.

James Cridland 25:34

Yeah, yeah. And and of course uh what it potentially means is uh you can catch the same person uh while they're listening to a podcast, while they're then using the New York Times app, while they're then playing Tetris, as you say. Um you can actually catch them with the same copy, with the same creative in all three of those of those environments as well, I suppose.

SPEAKER_04 25:56

Aaron Powell That That's exactly right. And and sort of leans in again, forget about you know the sort of individualized identity, but it it leans into the cohort, right? That's uh people who listen to Podcast X are the kinds of people that that I think are suitable for my brand. And so now I can understand who those people are and speak to them in places where the ad has more accountability than it does in podcasting right now.

James Cridland 26:14

Yeah, yeah, which is really interesting. So, where can people go to learn more about consumable and particularly around this uh this uh identity work?

SPEAKER_04 26:22

Yeah, if you go to consumable.com, you can find out all about it.

James Cridland 26:25

It's very easy. Uh Jared, uh, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

Thanks, James.

James Cridland 26:29

I appreciate your uh taking the time to speak with me about it.

Announcer 26:32

The pod news weekly review will return in just

Sound Off Podcast

Announcer 26:35

a second.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

I'm Matt Cundle, host of the Sound Off Podcast. I worked in radio for 25 years, and on the day of that 25th anniversary in 2014, I was restructured out of radio. And I thought to myself, wait a second, there's more audio being created than ever before. There's voiceover, podcasts, audiobooks, satellite radio, and I thought, what's going on here? I started this show which discussed all things audio related to broadcasting. And every week I come together with incredible talents and we get right to the nuts and bolts of all things audio. Each guest has a story about how they connect to people through sound. The show is not just for audio junkies. There's four of us that work on this show, and we do it because you need a home to hear the details about why audio is evolving the way it is. So join me every week on the Sound Off Podcast, the show about broadcast and podcast. You know the people. Why not get to know them?

SPEAKER_00 27:37

The Sound Off Podcast on your Apple, Spotify, or Amazon music app, or go to soundoffpodcast.com.

Announcer 27:45

The pod news weekly review with BuzzSprout. Start podcasting, keep podcasting.

Interview: Tom McAndrew, Dolby

Sam Sethi 27:54

James, now I met a very nice man at the London Podcast Show. His name's Tom McCandrew. He works for Dolby and he is about developer relationships and cultural relationships to do with Dolby Atmos. Do you know much about Dolby Atmos?

James Cridland 28:09

I know very little about Dolby Atmos except that um most podcast apps don't currently support it yet. It's um fancy sort of surround sound um uh audio, and that's about as much as I know. I hope that he knows more. Well, he does.

Sam Sethi 28:24

And and we think like many technologies, it you know, it's this new technology. That's what I was thinking. You know, we were talking about HLS. Oh, you know, we all need to move to HLS. That's a 10-year-old technology, nearly, in terms of Apple. Um, and Dolby Atmos has been in cinemas and it's on many cars, it's all over the iPhone, it's on the Android. Um, so what Dolby's done very well is they've licensed the um unencrypting part of Dolby Atmos. Um, so Tom approached me at the London Podcast Show and said, Look, we would like to bring this into podcasting, both audio and video. And we've been working with them as true fans on bringing that to my platform. But I thought I'd also interview Tom about tell me more about what is Dolby Atmos, and more importantly, how does that relate to what we do within podcasting and video podcasting?

SPEAKER_01 29:17

It's existing technology that we're adapting to the podcast world. I specifically promote Adolby Atmos to content creators. So Dolby Atmos immersive three-dimensional surround sound. It started as a cinema technology well over 10 years ago, and then went to feature films on shiny discs, and then streaming originals on streaming services, then live sports, music, and now here we are with podcasts and audiobooks. And it's been a fun ride. I really love working with podcast creators and showing them something new they can use their creativity with. Podcasting has been stereo MP3 for literally decades. And so to be able to bring immersive audio to the podcast world is it's really been an exciting ride.

Sam Sethi 29:56

Now, you were telling me that Apple already have this implemented. So explain what Apple already does.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Apple already has Adolby Atmos implemented for music, so immersive music, and there's tens or possibly even a hundred thousand odd songs available on the Apple Music platform, as well as Amazon Music and several other services around the world. In terms of podcasting, Adolby Atmos here in the US has been on Wonder Plus. OneDry Plus has been subsumed into Audible. But around the world, Atmos is available on services like Vibe, Himalaya, uh, Awas, Patio, Angami, etc. So about 15 odd services around the world where you can get a Dolby Atmos experience from a podcasting service. Now, if you're using a mobile phone, it's going to be a binaural render so that you're wearing headphones and it still sounds like immersive 3D sound. But if you have, say, a podcast service that's also Apple CarPlay enabled and you have Adolby Atmos capable car, of which there are already millions in the world, you can actually get an Atmos podcast experience while you're driving to work.

Sam Sethi 30:54

Nice. Now, as a developer, what would I need to do to implement this then?

SPEAKER_01 30:59

So as a podcast platform developer or as a creator?

Sam Sethi 31:02

Let's start with the podcast app developer, because obviously it needs to be there. So, what would I need to do as an app developer, or do I need to do it on the hosting side? Which end of the listening experience do I need to implement?

SPEAKER_01 31:14

So it starts with our engineering team. We would actually assist you with development kits and code and even things like logo badging for the content carousel to enable the platform. And we're working as we speak on more self-service applications and guides so that services can lift it up themselves. But you are implementing Adolby Codec delivery into the streaming service. To make it real simple, for iOS, it's our older codec, Adolby Digital Plus jock, which stands for joint object coding. For Android, we're using our latest codec, Adolby AC4. So instead of playing an MP3, which is just a straight delivery from the creator to a hosting provider to the consumer, it is utilizing Adolby Codec in order to deliver the immersive experience. So our engineering team would help out with enabling the platform. That is a little bit above my expertise, I'm more on the creation and mixing side, but I'm told from being a fly in the wall introducing our engineers to platform coders, it's usually a pretty quick conversation in terms of, oh, okay, I get it.

Sam Sethi 32:13

Yeah, so we're taking the uploaded content from the user, the podcaster in this case, the MP3, and we're putting it through the Dolby Atmos codec and then delivering that. Now that also means I assume that the client side, the app, the listening app, has to implement Dolby Atmos capability on its end. What do they need to do on that end?

SPEAKER_01 32:30

So in this case, let's talk about the mobile device. Every iPhone is able to decode Dolby Digital Plus. So that capability is already there. So it's not really app decoding, it's system decoding. And same thing for Android with Adolby AC4 IMS.

Sam Sethi 32:42

Okay, nice. That's the audio side. You also are working on the video side. Tell me more.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

We are. You know, it was really fascinating. When we attended Podcast Show London last month, okay, podcasts are sound. Let's talk about sound. And so we had mostly Adolby Atmos story crafted with the creators that we met with. Once we got to the show, we were like, oh my gosh, everybody is talking about video. And Adolby Vision, which is our latest video technology. And again, it's better video. It's a wider dynamic range that is white is brighter, black is darker, or at least can be brighter or darker. With great power comes great responsibility. But and also wider color gamut, you know, all the things that are great about Adolby Vision HDR experience. And again, vision is in cinemas, it's in home entertainment on things like Netflix, Disney Plus, etc. But we think we have a great story to tell here with Dolby Vision for podcasts. And specifically, a lot of the conversation with video podcasting was talking about 4K. And we're kind of like, hang on a second. Most people can absolutely not see 4K with this device unless you're holding it right up to here, trying to count pixels. What the better experiences, and it's a much lower data rate, is 2K, but with Dolby Vision enhancement. So that's a much better experience. High dynamic range is a much better bang for your buck than 4K is, just in general.

Sam Sethi 33:58

Now, the industry is moving away from MP3, MP4 to HLS. So streaming data rather than download data. So what you end up is with six-second packets of delivery. Now, with the audio codec and the video codec, can they still be used alongside HLS?

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Absolutely. HLS is old hat for us. It's already used for video streaming services, and so that's well established. That workflow is QED.

Sam Sethi 34:23

Okay. So my own company, Truefans, we're working on this with you. We want to implement this both on the hosting side and on the app side. But if other people want to do that as well, where would they go, Tom, to start the process?

SPEAKER_01 34:37

They could go to professional.dolby.com and we have quite a few different pages on platform enablement and quick start guides and a knowledge base. We recently launched a Discord server for creators to get involved with each other. On the content creation side, it's easy to make Dolby Atmos content with quite a few of the contemporary digital audio workstations. We're not trying to make money on home entertainment or mobile entertainment content creation. So Dolby Atmos rendering is built into platforms like Pro Tools, DaVinci Resolve, Apple Logic Pro, Nuendo Cubase, Persona Studio One. And so people who are already using those platforms, the Dolby Atmos renderer is right there. And at learning.dolby.com, we have quite a few self-service guides to learn how to mix in Dolby Atmos, including downloadable sample content that users can slap around and remix to their heart's content and really get comfortable with the Atmos mixing tools.

Sam Sethi 35:28

So I can see the benefit for hosters. They can do 2K with Dolby Atmos to get a higher quality without the higher data requirement.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

2K Dolby Vision with Dolby Atmos, right?

Sam Sethi 35:40

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Sorry to be pedantic.

Sam Sethi 35:42

That's fine. Please be, because I'm beyond my skis with what I'm doing here right now. And in the same way, I can see the value to the listener better sound quality, better experience, it's immersive, etc. You said Dolby's not in it to make money, but Dolby is a limited company. It's a publicly trusted company. Sure. Where do you make your money then? Come on, there must be something.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

You know, I liken it to sort of like you give away the printers to sell ink cartridges. And the printers is content creation tools for professionals. The ink cartridges are consumers. Whenever consumers buy a Dolby capable mobile phone or a TV or a soundbar or a stereo receiver or a car, that's a decoder licensing revenue that comes to us. So primarily we make our money on consumer decoder licensing. And content creation, I love that I don't have to show revenue. I just have to show that we're creating content in Dolby.

Sam Sethi 36:35

You talked about Android having the latest codec. Does that same codec AC4 move over to the iOS platform and then to desktops like Windows and Mac?

SPEAKER_01 36:47

We would have to talk to our friends at Apple about that. AC4 is getting a new codec, a new decoder introduced into consumer electronics is you know a years-long process. But we're making really good progress with it. If you're here in the States and you're watching World Cup on Telemundo on the Peacock streaming platform, you're actually hearing Adolby AC4 or Adolby Atmos in an AC4 container because AC4 is also in a lot of the latest broadcast specs. So slowly but surely we're launching out AC4 to linear broadcasts, to streaming services, as well as hardware platforms. And so that's a partnership conversation we're having with all those partners. It's the worst case scenario is we actually have a product called DAA, Dolby Atmos for Applications, where you can actually build a decoder into the streaming app itself. You know, for every problem, there's a solution.

Sam Sethi 37:33

There must be a point at which we humans cannot audibly detect better sound or see better vision. I keep asking, why do I ever want to consider an 8K TV? Why do I ever want to consider buying a Bowers and Wilkins CD player or speakers? I've got Bang and Olofson all over my house, and that's fine. That was the limit of my bank account plus the limit of my audio file capability. So is there a finite point where you guys go, we're done? That's it.

unknown 38:04

It's over.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

I think uh TV manufacturers are always going to want to sell TVs with a bigger number of something. But realistically, beyond 4K, is there really benefit to a consumer that's not standing a foot away from a 65-inch television? Probably not. So our Dolby Vision friends um say it's not about more pixels, it's about better pixels. And so that's what Dolby Vision gives you. Again, better contrast ratio, how bright is white, how dark is black, and then truer color fidelity. If we went back to the old CRT televisions, people accepted kind of an orangey red as actual red. Your brain actually fooled you because you know a red looks like in real life, or a vivid blue sky, like you'd see out at the beach, is a milky gray on older televisions. And consumers accepted that. But now that Dolby Vision can actually provide vivid colors, wider color gamut, uh, wider dynamic range, it is overall just a potted plant, obvious better experience.

Sam Sethi 38:59

How far are we away from real vision? As in the vision I can see outside the door compared to the digitized vision that we deliver through TVs.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

So I will preface this with I'm a sound guy, but man, I don't know. The television experience is great. I watch 4K with Dolby Vision. I'm watching so many of these World Cup games, and of course, it's not literally you are there, but it is an immersive visual as well as sonic experience. The roar of the crowd behind you and sound from the stadium all around you, the announcers right up front, and just that again, just beautiful green grass and all the colors of the player uniforms. Sports teams actually love the fact that you're getting truer color representation of their uniforms and their team colors with Dolby Vision. So that's an example of what we can bring to the party. But boy, turning on your TV and thinking you're looking through a window, gosh, we're close, but I don't know. I don't know. I think there's still frontiers we can crack.

Sam Sethi 39:56

Yeah, then the only frontier you have to crack is translating the Tartan Army somewhere. Other than that, you're fine. I understand Scotland gave Boston quite a time. Tom, with the name Macandrew with your Scottish roots there somewhere, thank you so much. Take care.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Oh, my pleasure. Cheers.

Announcer 40:12

From your daily newsletter, the Pod News Weekly Review.

How long should a podcast episode be

Sam Sethi 40:16

Moving on then, James, how long should my podcast episode be? The question that we often get asked by newbies, it's like, what mic should I get? Who should I host with? And how long should my podcast be? What's the answer?

James Cridland 40:29

Well, the correct answer is as long as it needs to be, but not a second longer. That's the correct answer. Um the incorrect answer is to have a look at uh the top 25 UK podcasts as OSHA has done. Sorry, OSHA. Um, the incorrect answer is to look at that and go, well, if the average episode duration for the top 25 podcasts in the UK is 54 minutes, you should make sure that your show is about 54 minutes. And that is absolutely not the case. So it and it kind of irritates me when people um take a look at this sort of data and they try and work out what you should be doing from it. Um because that's absolutely not what the data says. The data says that these podcasts are really good because they are the top 25 UK podcasts. Not that someone listens to a particular podcast because it's only 53 minutes. That's not why somebody has a listen to a podcast. The reason why somebody doesn't listen to a podcast is that it's full of fluff, they haven't edited it correctly, um, and people just get a bit bored of that. Um, and there are plenty of podcasts that we can think of. Um, not this one, obviously, because I edit it quite mercilessly. Um but yeah, none of this is in none of this will be heard, nobody cares. But um, but yeah, so uh, you know, I'm I'm always a bit dubious of um this sort of data. That said, uh OSHA have also done a bunch of other pieces of um of uh analysis in terms of what made the top 25 UK podcasts the top 25, and many of those just come down to decent metadata so people can actually find it um nicely uh consistent in terms of when it comes out uh and all of that kind of stuff. So I think all of that makes a bunch of sense. Um the average episode duration I just think is meh. I'm I'm I I don't find that particularly interesting or exciting, and I don't think that we can learn anything from it either, to be honest. So um that's my that's my humble opinion.

Sam Sethi 42:36

Um but still maybe maybe if you uh looked at people in your competing space and you looked at their average length, maybe. I mean, I'm just trying to give them something back. I mean maybe you know, you can look at all the podcasting 2-0 uh uh podcasts that we listen to and say, oh, you know, based on that, maybe but again, I don't think that's a good way of doing it either.

Who owns your RSS feed?

Sam Sethi 43:01

Now, James, you asked a really good question, or should I say, resonate asked a really good question, but you posted about it. Who owns the RSS feed?

James Cridland 43:10

Yeah, this is um a nice um uh uh set of questions to ask a podcast agency before you sign anything. So if you're thinking about getting somebody to make a podcast for your company, then these were 10 questions to ask them. And uh the first question on there was who owns the RSS feed? You would be very surprised to learn that there are a lot of podcast agencies out there who think that they own the RSS feed for the podcasts that they are making for clients, and they don't actually give them back to a client when that client wants to move away from that particular podcast agency. So I thought it was an interesting, you know, an interesting piece. And certainly, I mean, Dave Jackson um from the School of Podcasting, um, he has been, you know, very um very good at Highlighting, you know, and he highlights this again and again and again. Um, all of the different bad people who have been uh hired by folks as podcast consultants who frankly don't understand the first thing when it comes to podcasts, they don't understand even what RSS feeds are, which to me seems um just a bizarre old thing. Um, and so you know, Dave Dave Jackson is very good at you know highlighting this. I mean, you know, uh I I think I think he's very good at uh you know making sure that people totally understand that there are quite a lot of podcast um consultants out there who frankly don't understand very much.

Sam Sethi 44:48

We've seen this problem with who owns the RSS feed before, actually. Um the BBC were very good at allowing Peter Crouch to take his podcast. I think Simon Mayo was allowed to take his RSS feed as well. Um, and I think Pivot owned their podcast, even though it's on the Vox Media. So I do think, you know, you have to be aware that I think you've reported in the past on certain um podcasts where they weren't allowed to take their RSS feed and they've had to start from scratch.

James Cridland 45:20

Yeah, and I think, you know, um the BBC is an interesting one. So they have recently made a policy change which which does allow the uh podcast creator to uh use um the uh the RSS feed, or rather at least uh uh allows them to forward the RSS feed to whoever the podcast creator wants to end up uh using. So I think the BBC is doing the right thing here in terms of that. But yeah, there are plenty of people who you sign up to and you can't move that RSS feed, you know, ever again. So um, yeah, I think that that's um that that's a big thing.

How do people find podcasts?

Sam Sethi 45:57

Now, lastly on this section, you had two reports about, I suppose, podcast discovery, I'd label them. YouTube is the most popular way to discover new podcasts, according to research from Sounds Profitable and Jar Podcast Solutions. Tell me more, James.

James Cridland 46:12

Yeah, they've done uh a bunch of of um data around how people find podcasts. 61% discover shows via either YouTube or social media. Although, if you have a look at some of the age ranges, then actually it really depends if you're young versus if you're old. Uh, you get um uh very different uh viewpoints uh in that. Again, it seems to highlight that YouTube is a really good place for people to find podcasts, but actually people to consume podcasts possibly less so. Um, so you know, again, that's a uh useful piece of uh data, it's a free uh download. Um uh and that um coincides with some data from Magellan AI, which is um uh their first ever podcast measurement benchmark report. They haven't done any of these before. Podscribe, their competitor, has done quite a few of them. But um, one of the pieces of data that Magellan AI have uh found is that podcast promos really, really work. So we occasionally put podcast promos in this show, and nearly three in five new listeners who find a podcast through podcast promos return to listen to more episodes according to Magellan AI. That's some pretty good numbers. So I think it does go to show that podcast promos um really work. If you're doing a podcast and you haven't got a trailer, which is what a promo um uh should be or where you should put your your uh promo, then you should probably do that because that would be an important thing.

Sam Sethi 47:43

Again, I'm gonna reference the sound off podcast with Dan Meisner. They were talking really interestingly about the CPM rates of adverts within podcasts and saying that the low CPM rate, you know, that you buy the $14 bargain bucket um shouldn't apply to many podcasts because most of those podcasts have high value listeners in the sense they're very attuned to the topic that they're listening to. And um I'm sort of against those podcast promos that we put in because they don't tend to be a revenue generating to us, they are interruptive, and I don't know if they are tangentially aligned with what we do. And it's it's the case of if you listen to Dad Myerson, you should be looking at, you know, I I don't know if we'd ever do that, but he's talking about $250 CPM rates, right? And having much higher because the audience that's listening has a higher value. Um, so yeah, I just think promos are great, but I think picking your promos carefully and tuning them to the audience, but also uh monetising them because you've got a higher value audience is also critical.

James Cridland 48:56

Yeah, no, indeed. Indeed. I would certainly agree with that.

Around the world

Sam Sethi 49:00

Let's whiz around the world. Let's go over to you, James. There's a little bit of a scandal going on. What's gone on with this certain Carl Stefanovic? Um, he's from the I I guess the uh the today show.

James Cridland 49:12

What's the yes? He is. Uh in fact, uh he has interviewed me twice on that TV show. Um, he has um uh earlier on in the year he decided that he would do his own podcast, and Channel 9, who um are his main uh employer, said, Yes, you can absolutely do that, but we will pay you less as a result. And Carl Stefanovic said, Okay, well, I still want to do it, so I will do that. Um rumor is that he uh didn't really want to stay with that uh TV network. Anyway, uh it turns uh it turns out that he went to the UK relatively recently and he interviewed Tommy Robinson, who is a far-right activist, he's a convicted criminal, he's a particularly unpleasant guy. And um Carl Stefanovic ended up um not just interviewing him but praising him for his uh views. Um that went live um uh last uh weekend, um, and uh it has already been pulled down from his podcast feed. Nine Entertainment are deeply unimpressed, have firstly said that the podcast has nothing to do with them, and secondly, that they're taking the matter very seriously. He's reported to have been fired um by uh Channel 9. Um, and uh certainly he hasn't been on the Today show, and uh he's got a radio show on ARN, which is the same company that uh also gives uh Kyle Sanderlands uh a job or used to. Um, but uh weirdly, we've been told that he's not going to be on that show either this week. So uh hopefully he's not on there either. But it just goes to show. If you want to um uh play the far right uh politics game, then that does come with some repercussions in terms of what other people think of you.

Sam Sethi 51:05

Uh I I I think there's a small rip of applause coming from me over here, but anyway, moving on.

James Cridland 51:10

Well, yes, politics, politics, talking about politics, the Daily Wire uh is in talks to um grab $100 million worth of investment. Um uh of course that's Ben Shapiro's company, and um uh basically they're trying to get a funding round that will value the company at $750 million. There's a lot of money in hate, isn't there? And in Canada, a counselor in St. John's in Newfoundland and Labrador has been suspended because he quoted from Stephen Bartlett's diary of a CEO. He was um presenting claims uh given by one of his guests as fact. He was told by another counsellor, you you're not uh claiming these, these are not fact, they're just a statement by this particular guest. And his response uh I think was two words and ended with the word off. Um and so he was suspended for that. Oh dear. Um uh the claims were made by somebody who um calls herself a licensed clinical social worker because she is. She's called Erica Commissar. She isn't a psychologist, though, and she was making quite a lot of statements that a psychologist really ought to be making. A registered psychologist that CBC News uh interviewed said that uh the claims that she was making were inaccurate. So it just goes to show don't go repeating everything that you hear on a podcast because uh it might be a load of nonsense. Apart from this one, of course. Now, um Yes indeed.

People news

Sam Sethi 52:45

People in jobs. Now, this one here, James, uh caught my eye. iHeart Media has begun a new round of layoffs affecting dozens of workers in its local radio unit. But it's got a wider implication because it's basically their CEO of the multi-platform group, uh Maria Licata. Um I hope I said that correctly. Um is saying that they've built and developed technologies over the past several years that will improve efficiency. It sounds like another AI story that's leading to people being laid off.

James Cridland 53:18

Well, interestingly, it sounds like another one, but actually iHeart has been very clear in saying that it will not turn any of its on-air personalities into AI personalities, and they've been uh very clear in saying that you know human beings live here, not AI bots. And that may be one of the reasons why Inception Point AI is no longer on Spreeker, um, which of course is another iHeart company, and um has been forced to find somewhere else um because of that uh rule. But uh yes, iHeartMedia is essentially two different companies. It's um iHeartMedia, you know, um the podcast uh company and the app company and all of that, they are doing uh a pretty good job um uh under uh Connell Byrne and iHeartMedia's multi-platform group, which is the old-fashioned radio stations and the transmitters and the and the people uh the people above the pizza shop uh talking about uh the doobie brothers uh and all that kind of stuff. Very difficult um uh economic um uh experience for them and uh yet more um more layoffs uh for them. In fact, you know, I mean I've been reading in my LinkedIn, I've been reading um uh folks basically saying, you know, some people saying that they have been working for iHeart for the last 41 years and have just been um given the pink slip, as I understand it's called in the US. Um, so uh difficult um for them. There are some hires though, uh going on. There's a director of podcast development at TrueNative Media. She's called Julia Amran. She'll be expanding and strengthening True Native Media's growing roster of uh creators and networks. There's a uh new executive producer at Platform Media, uh Chris Quinn. I say new, uh, he's been an executive producer for over a month, but platform media only bothered to press release it uh a couple of days ago, um, which is a bit miserable of them. But anyway, uh he'll be working on Paul Scholes' show, so that's exciting. And and Cody Kleitz or Cleats has been promoted to vice president of sales at Amplitude Media Partners. That's another AMP. Uh John Donohue, um who is a co-founder of AMP, says that Cody has been instrumental to AMP's success over the past two years.

Awards and events

Sam Sethi 55:44

Any awards or events to talk about, James?

James Cridland 55:47

Yes, plenty of awards and events. Firstly, congratulations to the Tribeca Festival, which announced its competition winners earlier on in the month. I linked to that uh yesterday in the Pod News newsletter. Uh also the Society of Editors had their inaugural news podcast awards this week. They promoted a bunch of um of opportunities to buy tickets, but they didn't bother telling us who had won. Um but I can uh but I can tell you Sky News seemed to have a good uh night of it. Um they won podcast of the year for the war game, which is a co-production with uh Tortoise, the uh news company in the UK. Uh also uh they've won Podcast Interview of the Year with Electoral Dysfunction for their interview with Angela Rayner, who is stroke, was the uh Chancellor of the Exchequer, uh, the head of the economy uh uh essentially. I mean, who knows what's going on in your country, Sam. Um uh also uh the news agents won Political Podcast of the Year, and the rest is entertainment won the Showbiz and Entertainment Podcast of the Year. Congratulations uh to them. And there is a big event uh happening very, very shortly in just a couple of weekends time. Crossed wires, of course, uh happening in uh Sheffield. Um there's all of their guests and all of their local lineups have been published now. Um, you can uh buy tickets for certain things, you can just rock up for other things. Um, it's a very smart um uh event that Dino Sofos from Persifonica and a bunch of other people put on. Uh Greg James, Alice Levine. Um, it's uh uh your friend Alice Levine. Sorry, Sam, I keep on forgetting. Uh and so all of these. So no, no, no, don't know Alice.

Sam Sethi 57:27

No, no, you'll you you you'll use it. I'm thinking of Hannah Fry, aren't I? Yes, yes, yes, only different person.

James Cridland 57:33

Yes, yes, ever so slightly.

Sam Sethi 57:37

Anyway, so Alice, if you want to be friends, you know, DM me.

James Cridland 57:40

No problem. Anyway, uh, crosswires.live uh is where to go uh for that. And if you would like to come and speak with me at Podcast Movement in New York City, I say with me. Um I haven't been confirmed. But uh, if you want to speak, you've got a week to get your speaker submission in. That's what I've done, uh, because half of the schedule will be selected by community vote, half by an independent committee. I have put forward the idea of me talking for half an hour on the history of podcasting, uh, which is something that uh certainly won't be um getting me into into any trouble whatsoever, especially when I say that the first podcaster started podcasting in 1947. But anyway, uh let's not wait, let's not go there. Um uh you'll find the link uh in the pod news newsletter if you want to uh be a speaker

The Tech Stuff

James Cridland 58:26

this year.

Announcer 58:26

The Tuck Stuff on the Pod News Weekly Review.

James Cridland 58:31

Yes, it's the stuff you'll find every Monday in the Pod News newsletter. Here's where Sam talks technology. Good news from AntennaPods, Sam.

Sam Sethi 58:37

Yes, so the open source podcast player has a new set of improved features. Um, a translation platform. He says this is what community-funded open source should look like. User support an app, the app improves, and then the entire open ecosystem uh improves as well. Yes, well done, Antenopod.

James Cridland 58:57

Yeah, so well done, Antennapod. They have um uh sponsored a set of features in WebLate, which is a translation platform used by lots of other people as well. Antenopod really liked it. Antenopod put some money in it, and that's exactly how open source should work. Um, is making sure that uh it doesn't just benefit them, but it benefits all kinds of other people as well. So hurrah for them. Um, there's a new AI-powered podcast platform uh as well called Rebel Audio, which sounds exciting. Is this Mark Asker? It's not, nothing to do with Mark Asker. It should be no because I I think he's got a company that relates to Star Wars, the Rebels in his.

Sam Sethi 59:36

Yes.

James Cridland 59:36

No, okay, just checking. No, uh so this is a company called Rebel Audio. Um, it promises AI powered translation and clipping and repurposing and all of that kind of stuff. The company interestingly, um so the platform promises uh a few things AI powered translation, yeah, and also direct publishing to Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube in one click. Okay. The company launched a podcast to put the platform's capabilities on display, I wrote last week. What I didn't write is the podcast is only available on Apple Podcasts and doesn't have any video attached to it. So I'm not quite sure how much it's actually putting the platform's capabilities on display, but still, but there we are. I'm sure that they know what they're doing. That's a company called Rebel Audio. Talking about Captivate, by the way, as we probably should uh now that you've talked about uh Mark Asquith. Captivate turning on Captivate monetization this week. Uh it's a full set of tools to help its podcasters earn revenue from advertising. This is really clever. So it's got programmatic advertising, which is the way that uh RSS and and other people um earn you money by putting random ads in your uh shows, uh, or I should probably say carefully targeted ads with in your shows. Um but also, so you've got that bit um but which they're working with DaxUS uh for. But also they've got another thing called Captivate Marketplace, so you can actually use that product to sell advertising on your podcasts to other people, which is a really neat idea. And um well done, Captivate, for thinking about that. Again, that's relatively similar to the way that um Buzzprout um does its ads as well, who are our sponsor, of course. Um, and plus, they've launched a new campaign management tool for Amy, which is the company's dynamic content insertion engine. So you can basically say, I want this ad to appear in these shows um up until 10,000 impressions, and then get rid of it. Um, and you can do all of that through Amy. It's uh very uh smart and neat. Uh, if you want to learn more, there's a free webinar on Monday. Uh the good news is it's on YouTube, and so you will be able to turn these subtitles on in case you can't understand Mark Asquith's Yorkshire. Um, but um that will be there. Um but uh it does look um it does look very smart. They've taken their time to add uh a whole uh suite of monetization features, and I think they've done a pretty good job there.

Sam Sethi 1:02:07

Well, we interviewed Mark, if you remember, a couple of weeks back and the performance of Dax US, where we talked about all this stuff. So it was good. Correct. They've launched that yeah. Now, uh one thing that I have been looking at is the new iOS 27, all of the platform stuff, and a couple of things that popped out. The uh CarPlay update that's due in probably September. A couple of things that I like. One is if your CarPlay uh monitor is touch screen and most of them are, of course, then you can now scrub forward and back. It's been overdue forever. You can you could see the play uh bar, but you couldn't move it anywhere, and so it was frustrating. So you'd have to go to your phone and move it. Well, now you can do it directly on the touch screen in your car, so that's a good thing. They've added a new mini player, uh, which is available to all app developers, not just Apple. So now the mini player sits in the top right hand corner, and that means you can still go and do other things with your CarPlay, so you can go and touch and look at other apps and go to the weather and do whatever you want while the podcast is still playing, so that's quite a nice feature. Um finally, James, although you might not like this one, um, Apple TV will be in iOS 27 CarPlay. So you will be able to watch videos, so expect to see Netflix and YouTube and all sorts of other apps come into CarPlay. But the video only works when you're parked.

James Cridland 1:03:40

Yeah, no, I think that that makes sense, and I believe that um I think that YouTube will work in the same way as well. So you can actually sit there while you're waiting, you know, to pick up your daughter from Paddle or whatever ridiculous thing that they're doing. Uh your daughter's doing paddle. Well done, clever go. Then you can uh then you can um uh use your fancy speakers in your car and your decent uh screen in your car to watch videos and stuff like that. I think all of that makes uh a bunch of sense. While we're on iOS 27, it's been reported elsewhere that um there is a new um logo for Apple Podcasts. It's just a little tweak to what we um were given in iOS 26. It's a bit brighter, it's a bit uh neater. Um, and so if you are adding Apple Podcasts logos to your website, I would hang fire until iOS 27 comes out because that way you will get the very latest version of that logo uh for your website uh as well. The way that you can spot the difference, by the way, is if it is a bright purple sort of halo um around the person's face, um, then that's the new logo. If it is just a sort of a grey, uh then it's the old logo. So um, yes, worthwhile knowing about.

Sam Sethi 1:04:57

Now, one report you put in, well, at least two reports actually, is from a site called car curate that I've never come across, um, Ryan Williams. Um, first one is he's proposing a podcast annotation format. What's this, James?

James Cridland 1:05:12

Well, so uh, and this sort of ties into what he has been doing. He was tracking hundreds of shows to understand what's going on in the space of car podcasts, of auto podcasts. And uh he's been doing quite a lot of work in uh finding out what cars have been talked about and all of that kind of stuff. And his idea was to add a format um uh called podcast annotation that would essentially say um at this particular point in the podcast, we are talking about a Porsche 911. Um and uh here is what we mean by a Porsche 911. Here is the person who is talking about it, blah blah blah. So annotations seems like quite a nice idea, and I say To Ryan, have you considered using the chapters specification for that? Can we uh broaden out the chapters specification, which I know is something that Daniel J. Lewis has been keen to do, um, to enable not just here's an image for that particular chapter and here's a link for that particular chapter, but what he's talked about in this particular chapter. Uh, and so he's run a little bit w with that. Um, he's um taken a good look at the chapters, um uh the chapter's uh specification, and one of the things that he's ended up doing is he has um uh essentially reached out to me in terms of um turning the Pod News Daily podcast into a video podcast, because that's something that I've been sort of playing around with this week. And one of the things that I've been wanting to do is to produce something which is relatively automatically produced, which is um for every uh for every um uh section of the podcast to have an image about this particular story, maybe a headline from that particular story. Um, how can I get that done? And as I was talking to Ryan, I thought it it it's obvious, isn't it? It's the podcast chapters again. So it's actually using podcast chapters for what it's there for. Um, can I put an image in there and a link in there and a headline in there, maybe a description in there, and blah blah blah? It's pretty well all done in the podcast chapters format. So he has produced a piece of code which will automatically produce chapters for the Pod News Daily Podcast, which is very cool, but also secondly, will automatically add all of those graphics to the video version, so I don't need to worry about all of that. So all of that completely automatic, it goes off and gets the you know, the open graph image and all of that. It's a very nice piece of code, so I'm hoping to play around with that and see if I can understand how it works properly in terms of um making that work for a day-to-day version of that show.

Sam Sethi 1:08:15

That sounds very cool. Uh, last couple of ones then. Um SpotsNow intelligence is now available from Claude and ChatGPT. Snor wakes up, wonders why um I'm not an MCP fan. But go on, tell me why this is such a great idea.

James Cridland 1:08:30

Well, it's a great idea. Uh uh, so says uh SpotsNow, our sponsor. Uh it's a great idea because it allows uh it allows Claude or ChatGPT to um hook into all of the data that uh SpotsNow has. I believe that Magellan AI and Podscribe have something similar as well, but it essentially allows you to go on to Claude and say, what are the most popular podcasts um at the moment for um 55-year-old women? And it will come back and tell you without you actually having to um do any more work than that. Um so it's quite neat. If you are a pod news reader, as you all are, hooray! Uh, then you can get your first month um in that for free. If you are already using Claude or Chat GPT or any other thing that understands an MCP, um, then you can go and give that a uh go. But um, yeah, it looks quite um smart. Um if you want to. It's part of the uh uh this uh tool that SpotsNow has produced, which essentially uses AI for the boring bits so that your salespeople can actually go out and sell. And I think that that's always a good plan. Keep your salespeople doing what salespeople do best, which is going out and selling, talking to people, helping them understand what it is that you actually have to offer rather than the boring bits of booking the campaigns and everything else. So I think all of that makes uh make quite a bit of sense to be honest.

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James Cridland 1:10:13

Inbox Yeah, so many different ways of getting in touch with us. Um you can get in touch with us um well, fan mail by using the link in our show notes, which includes voicemail as well, which uh, you know, such a shame that nobody uses it. Why aren't you using the voicemail in our show notes? You should be doing that, or boosts, or email. They're not shy. We know they're not shy. I know exactly, particularly Neil Vellio, but he ends up sending us messages as well. Um, which says here, um, I'd sooner lose all my limbs than accept a job with Stephen Bartlett. Gosh, okay. Um, fair enough. Um, and uh he also says something uh uh potentially actionable about uh Inception Point AI, which I'm not going to read out, but um but still, but there we are. Uh so thank you, Neil, for that. Um, that's very kind of you. Um 24 supporters of the Pod News uh weekly review. Uh you can join them if you like, weekly.podnews.net. Very, very grateful uh for all of those people who have ended up uh doing that. Uh it's uh time for spam of the week very, very quickly. Uh I know it's your favorite, uh your favorite um thing on this podcast, Sam. Uh well, it's become a new feature that we didn't talk about, but go. Yes, this one is from Ivan Roman, uh, who says, Dear Distinguished, my name is Ivan Roman from Trans Oil Trade LLP. It's my pleasure to write you. We are an official mandate company working directly with reliable major refineries in Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, which has been into exportation of oil and gas products for years. We source potential buyers and or their authorized mandate for petroleum products. Kindly revert back to us if interested with your end buyer official L O I ICPO inserting the uh accepted procedure for further proceeding. Uh no thank you. Unsubscribe. So, uh

Sam and James's week

James Cridland 1:12:06

what's your uh week been like, Sam?

Sam Sethi 1:12:08

Well, uh, not buying oil, that's for certain. Now I I had a bit of uh an ASMR moment. Now you you got me onto an ASMR. Um I didn't know. Yeah, many, many, many months ago you talked about um ASMR on this podcast, and I went, what the hell's that? And we won't go into why. Um, but anyway, it's autosensory. I can find the clip if you want. Um uh yeah, uh anyway. I had a moment this week. I had Matt Cundle in my left ear and I had Dan Meisner in my right ear. I mean, they've got wonderful voices, you know, ex-radio men that they are. Um, and it was a really good podcast. I I think this is the third time I've promoted that episode in this show. So uh I think it was a good one. Um, I I think it can only be better if Tom Watson uh was in my ear or Leo Laporte. But I mean, those four men have got very good voices, I think. And I I would add Adam Curry when he does his DJ voice. So when he goes into full up blown Adam Curry, I think he's got a very good voice as well.

James Cridland 1:13:10

Yes, yes, my friend on the other end. Uh you've got some birthdays in here, haven't you?

Sam Sethi 1:13:17

Yeah, uh Vince, uh father or godfather of the internet, the guy who came up with TCPIP. Um, yeah, it's his 83rd birthday. Um happy birthday, Vince. Yeah. He was he was at Google. I don't know if he's still at Google, but yeah, he was working for them for a while.

James Cridland 1:13:33

Very good. Also, happy birthday to uh the UK's Brexit, um, which you must be delighted by. Ten years old this week.

Sam Sethi 1:13:40

As I spoke to Nigel last week at the champagne drinks I was with, you know, obviously. Yes. Good God help me. Where's my lifelike?

James Cridland 1:13:48

Where's a where's a milkshake when you need one?

Sam Sethi 1:13:50

Exactly. Um, no, he's got five million pounds worth of money now to stop people throwing in milkshakes. That's allegedly what he's doing. Oh god. As much as protection money from uh Singapore. Um, yes, sadly, Little Britain now is both economically and culturally poorer. We are a divided country. Six Prime Ministers this week, James. We lost another one this week.

James Cridland 1:14:11

Yes, I know. You're gonna have Prime Minister Burnham before too long, but we've got to wait. Um uh so hopefully he'll he'll he'll fix he'll fix everything and it'll all be good.

Sam Sethi 1:14:22

We used to joke about the Italians, now they joke about us.

James Cridland 1:14:25

Um the Italian, the Italian Prime Minister, by the way, my goodness, she knows how to talk to Donald Trump, doesn't she? Mark Lane.

Sam Sethi 1:14:34

Yes, yes, anyway, there we are. I'll have her as our Prime Minister any day. Um uh yeah, so fundamentally it is the 10th anniversary of Brexit, and the country's GDP is 68% down, uh inward investment is down somewhere between 12 and 18%. So look, happy birthday, Brexit. Uh, don't worry, we've taken back control, James. So everything's okay.

James Cridland 1:14:58

Yes, well, that's all okay then.

Sam Sethi 1:15:00

Anything else? Uh a little bit miffed. I spent two hours recording a certain podcast and that hasn't been published. And you know, again, if you spend time, I think just a little bit miffed on that one. I won't say any more about that. Probably fair enough. What's happened for you, James?

James Cridland 1:15:17

Well, thank you to our sponsors, Bun Sprout. Um, they've upgraded our hosting plan to allow for video, don't they know who I am?

Sam Sethi 1:15:23

When we do video, when do I have to go and shave?

James Cridland 1:15:26

Yeah, oh gosh. Yes, we're doing it and put on the makeup and you know Well, I think you'll you'll have to actually wear some clothes for a for a while. So uh yes. So we're hang on wait.

Sam Sethi 1:15:37

You know, and most people think I run only fans and not tree fans. Maybe I don't.

James Cridland 1:15:42

So all of that is going on. Um, but uh yes, so we we must um uh think of what we're gonna do about that. Um new and exciting news uh from uh uh from uh me is that um they've uh actually installed my solar, a job that should have taken a day, that I ended up taking three and a half days, but they've actually installed it, which I'm um quite excited by.

Sam Sethi 1:16:07

Um I've managed to go almost in the sentence here, by the way.

James Cridland 1:16:10

Yes, uh almost, because um what they've failed to bring is the um is the EV charger, so they'll still have to come back with that. But apart from that, everything is all working. The most Chinese of all Chinese apps on my phone, um, which is um which is uh hilarious. Particularly hilarious, by the way, was the email that I got when they registered me. And the email came through and it said um download this app if you are on an iPhone, or download this app if you're on an Android phone outside of China, because the Android phone app doesn't actually work if you're inside China because it's on Google Play. So oh dear gosh. Anyway, but um yes, uh very exciting. Um, yes, I've got battery, I've got it hooked up to home assistance, so I shouldn't need to use the app particularly much. I think I've got it. I think I've got it, but it'll I'll have to wait until tomorrow. But I think I've got it so that it will automatically fill the battery, regardless of what happens with the solar, between 11 and 2, which is when I get free electricity tomorrow. Um so hopefully it'll just magically fill the battery, but we'll see quite what happens there. But um, yes, very excited. Um alongs alongside that um uh I've also got a very uh entertaining little sort of it's a little box, I don't know quite how to explain it, but it's a little tiny thing. 10 Australian dollars, so five quid from AliExpress. It's called a Geek Magic Mini TV Ultra. And um when you get it, it uh has a weather um you know app on it and it'll connect to the internet and get the weather forecast. None of that's particularly interesting, but you can get home assistant to put information on it. So I now have this tiny little um screen which is in front of me, which is showing me how much um you know uh electricity is in my car's battery and how much electricity is in the house and uh and all of that. Ten ten Australian dollars for that. It's astonishing. So um yeah, so I've been quite um quite pleased with that.

Sam Sethi 1:18:29

Doesn't your car come with its own app on your phone?

James Cridland 1:18:32

Oh yes, it comes with an app on on the phone and everything else, but this is all coming off the home assistant thing, and it just cycles round and and tells me, you know, how much electricity the house is using, 400 watts at the moment, in case you're wondering. Uh how much um, you know, how much uh um uh charges in the battery, 10% apparently. Why why isn't it taking that out of the battery instead of off the grid? But anyway, uh all of that kind of stuff. So um yeah, it's a very, very smart little uh thing. I'm quite sort of jealous. I'm thinking about buying a few more of these and dossing them around the house.

Sam Sethi 1:19:08

I'm not saying Australia's big, but 221 kilometers only get you to shop some back, wouldn't it?

James Cridland 1:19:15

221 kilometers will get me a long, long way, Sam. And there are other chargers uh on the way. So I think I think I'm okay there. And on that bombshell, um, that's it for this week. All of our podcast stories that were taken from the Pod News Daily Newsletter, of course, at Podnews.net.

Sam Sethi 1:19:34

Well, one last story I forgot to mention. I'm not here next week, James.

James Cridland 1:19:38

You're not? No. There will be a exciting uh co-host, temporary co-host for the week, and you will have to wait and find out who it is next week.

Sam Sethi 1:19:47

Is it called Claude?

James Cridland 1:19:50

It is not. Oh, okay. Real human beings. She is definitely real, and she knows what she's talking about.

Sam Sethi 1:19:56

Oh, you put you put gender in there. Shh.

James Cridland 1:19:59

Yes.

Sam Sethi 1:20:00

Yes, no. Uh you can support this show by string sat. She can give us feedback using the BuzzBrout thumbnail or voicemail link in our show notes, and you can send us a boost or become a power supporter like the 24 Power Supporters at weekly.podnews.net.

James Cridland 1:20:14

Yes, our music is from TM Studios. Our voiceover is Sheila D. Our audio is recorded using CleanFeed. We edit with Hindenburg, and we're hosted and sponsored by BuzzBrout. Start podcasting. Keep podcasting.

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